Published: Wednesday, 27th January, 2010 4:57pm
Bypass 'a matter of life and death', Slane group tells protesters
by Ann Casey
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Vincent Salafia....has written to Bypass Slane group seeking co-operative working relationship.
A warning shot has been fired across the bows of protesters against the proposed Slane bypass this week that delays to the project could result in even more loss of life.
John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee asked if environmental and heritage protesters would be able to live with themselves if there was another tragedy in the village if the project was delayed. "The primary reason for the bypass is to end the carnage in Slane. It is a matter of life and death," he said.
Following more than 22 road deaths in the village and decades of campaigning by the people of Slane, the National Roads Authority (NRA) has put plans for the new Slane bypass on display. The proposal is to build the road 500 metres from the end of the 'buffer zone' around the World Heritage Site at Newgrange.
While the plan has been welcomed locally and received a tentative welcome from An Taisce, a campaign against the route has already begun and a Facebook group called 'Save Newgrange,' which opened on Saturday, already has 2,200 members.
They are drawing up a petition against the proposed route which will be forwarded to the Meath County Manager and the Minister for the Environment, John Gormley.
The bridge and the road through Slane is one of the most dangerous stretches of road in Ireland. Villagers estimate that 200 HGVs an hour drive through Slane during rush hour and statistics compiled by the NRA estimate 6,400 vehicles a day pass through the village.
At least 22 people have lost their lives along a 1.5km stretch of the N2 through Slane and at Slane Bridge.
These included two year-old local boy, David Garvey, who died when the car in which he was travelling was crushed under the wheels of a heavy goods lorry as it waited at the traffic lights on the hill approaching the bridge.
Last March, a nine-vehicle collision in the centre of the village left four people injured. Gardai claimed it was a miracle nobody had been killed in the accident which involved several families returning from the school run. At least six cars were written off and two lorries badly damaged.
John Ryle, who lives close to Slane Bridge, said he had seen some horrific sights over the years. "I remember the late Fr Dooley being paddled out in an inflatable dinghy to give the last rites to a truck driver who lay dying in his truck in the Boyne," he said.
In the 1980s, a busload of schoolchildren had a miraculous escape when their bus crashed through the bridge wall and dangled precariously over the river and the tragic death of a truck driver whose vehicle plunged into the Boyne the same decade was compounded by the death a short while later of the crane driver who was attempting to remove the truck from the river when his crane toppled over.
Following the death of little David Garvey in 2001, new traffic-calming measures, which included a holding area for trucks descending down to the medieval bridge from the village, were put in place. However, John Ryle says there have still been numerous accident at the bridge and in the village in the years since.
Meanwhile, Vincent Salafia of the Save Newgrange campaign said his group included a number of celebrities, archaeologists, journalists and concerned citizens from Ireland and around the world. Mr Salafia was also prominent in the recent campaign to re-route the M3 motorway away from the Hill of Tara.
"A petition addressed to the Meath County Manager, Tom Dowling, Minister for the Environment, John Gormley and UNESCO is being drafted, and will be published shortly," he said.
He said he was writing to Bypass Slane Campaign in order to seek a co-operative working relationship and find common ground.
Colm Mac Naillais, an archaeology student from UCD, who is an administrator of the group, said they were delighted with the massive response they were getting from people who were very concerned about the lack of consultation that has taken place, before the CPO process began, despite the fact that no planning permission has been granted.
"While protecting Bru na Boinne and Newgrange is our primary objective, and right, we believe it is in everyone's interest that the proper consultation procedures are followed before planning permission is granted," he said.
Slane councillor Wayne Harding said the proposed road is not a motorway but a 3.5km section of road bypassing the heritage village of Slane. He said it was outside the buffer zone that protected the monuments inside the World Heritage site.
He said 22 people had lost their lives on Slane Bridge and, last year, a truck lost control "and literally played skittles with cars who were full of mothers bringing their children to school".
He went on: "The enviromental impact statement on the project is a massive document and is currently on display. I would ask people to look at it before joining Facebook groups or websites that are opposed to Slane getting its bypass," he said.
Deputy Thomas Byrne said safety had to be put before anything and he urged people to read the environmental impact assessment. "Slane village is an architectural treasure that also needs to be protected," he said.
The NRA's proposal is to build the bypass downriver from the present bridge and to the east of the village. The proposed bypass will be 500m away from the buffer zone around the World Heritage Site at Brú na Bóinne, which comprises the ancient megalithic tombs at Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth.
The environmental impact statement for the project acknowledges that 44 archaeological sites will be within 500m of the roadway and that the potential to uncover much more during work is high.
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Maria Meagher
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Jan 27 10 21:42
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I was posting on the Save Newgrange site questioning. I responded to a post questioning what was happening with Newgrange with the response that a road was being built 500 metres from the Bru na Boinne site, but that Newgrange itself would be unaffected. I promptly received this in my inbox from Vincent Salafia: "This group is for people who support the cause. You obviously don't, so please stop trying to disrupt it. There are plenty of sites for moderated balanced debate, but this isn't one of them".
My post (which was not in any way disruptive) has been removed. If Mr. Salafia has no interest in a "moderated balanced debate" in his own facebook group, one wonders what point there would be in trying to foster a "working relationship" with the Bypass Slane Committee.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 14:03
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The first act undertaken by the Save Newgrange campaign was to write to the Bypass Slane Campaign, and ask for a meeting, in order find common ground - in light of the fact that both groups are campaigning for the HGV ban in Slane, and Save Newgrange is not an anti-bypass campaign. It is a pro-heritage campaign.
No response was received. Instead, a number of members of BSC Facebook group (100 members), including Ms Meagher, took it upon themselves to join the Save Newgrange facebook group (6,000 members), without identifying themselves and cause disruption. In some cases, there were very abusive messages, such as the ones currently displayed on the BSC page (now closed to the public). It was a planned an co-ordinated attack.
The Save Newgrange group is for people who support the aims of the group, as is the case with the BSC group. Neither group's web site is an appropriate place for having balanced debates, because there is no neutral moderator.
I gave links to politics.ie and indymedia where moderated discussions are taking place. Both groups have legitimate concerns and as well as common concerns, and we would like to see some positive interaction, done in a civil manner.
Again, I ask for a meeting with the Bypass Slane Campaign, and an end to the deliberate attacks and negative campaigning.
http:www.savenewgrange.net
Ray Kelly
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Jan 28 10 15:57
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Mr Salifia said "Neither group's web site is an appropriate place for having balanced debate" This is nuts. Delete postings if they are offensive for sure, but deleting postings that contain factual information that members may not be aware of is like something from the days of the Soviet Union. A group that has everybody 'on message' is only useful if the opinons expressed are based on complete knowledge of the sitation. BTW this comment applies to all groups - not just the Save Newgrange group.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 17:10
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There is a difference between normal discussion, amongst like-minded people, and a premeditated attack by one group, purely aimed at disrupting the other group. In this case, we are talking about two supposedly opposing lobby groups, at least that's how BSC see it.
The purpose of the Save Newgange facebook group is to organise a campaign, of like-minded individuals. The purpose is not to host debates, and spend all our time moderating malicious or intentionally disruptive members, or constantly explaining ourselves and being distracted from our goal.
Both sides are going to be biased on their own boards, and it is best that discussions between certain parties on certain matters take place in the appropriate neutral forum.
We have proposed various places for discussions, proposed a meeting and emails have been sent, kindly asking for peaceful interaction. In response, we have received nothing but abuse, false accusation or silence.
The point I am making is that we do want open, direct and fully accountable discussions, where everyone has a right to their opinion, but is also accountable for what they say. Internet forums are not the best place for that kind of discussion, where people are often anonymous and or speaking without the authority of the organisation they claim to represent.
The whole point of our campaign is to ensure that all of the information is available to all the parties, and that everyone has their say before planning permission is granted. Instead, it seems to be the opposite here, with a small vocal group claiming to speak for the entire local community, and also wishing to deny anyone else their legal right to participate - and a planning process which is being completely pre-empted by the issuance of CPOs before the plan went public.
This bypass will be paid for by taxpayers from all around Ireland, giving all Irish citizens a rightful say in this.
The road could not be any closer to Bru na Boinne without touching it, and that gives all the people of the world a right to participate in this decision, because it is a UNESCO site, which by definition belongs to them. And remember, the M1 motorway touches it on the western side. The authorities never even told UNESCO about that, and this time they have moved ahead without waiting for a response.
On the other hand, the AA rates the N2 as a medium risk road, and there are dozens of worse spots in Ireland that are not getting any bypass.
If this bypass goes ahead,The Village Inn in Slane will be one of the most accessible pubs in Ireland with the M3 5 miles west, the M1 5 miles east, and a dual carriageway to the back door.
We are not going to allow ourselves to become the scapegoats for the Government's bad planning. There is surely a solution that can accommodate heritage and development, and we in Save Newgrange would like to find that solution, in a peaceful way, with a positive attitude.
We are not against the bypass per se. Bu****hink we should both be campaigning for the HGV ban in the short run, as it is a common stated aim of both campaigns, to have it implemented. It is criminal that the County Manager did not implement it, against the vote of the Councillors. If even this plan goes ahead, it will be years before it opens. So, the ban is needed now. If people are genuine about saving lives then they should all work together to get the ban in place immediately.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 17:30
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As for your Russian comment. Save Newgrange Facebook group remains open, accessible and visible to the public.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=438725795435&ref=mf
Bypass Slane Campaign is now a closed group, and hidden from the public, and membership requires approval
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=12682393252
RayKelley
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Jan 28 10 18:30
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Look, all I am saying is that I went to your group for infomation as I am genuinely concerned about Newgrange. However, what seemed to be informative posts were being deleted regularly. No matter what you say, this is wrong. If the info is legit and you cause is valid, then what do you have to fear from it ? I have not even visted the other group as I assumed that I would get all the relevant information at your group. Sadly, that is not the case. I am now very suspicious about your true motives.
Maria Meagher
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Jan 28 10 18:45
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Mr.Salafia may be distressed to learn, as it will not fit in with his "coordinated attack" allegations, that I was a member of the Save Newgrange group alone. After three very moderate postings I was barred from the site. It was at that point that I joined the Bypass Slane Campaign group. I have asked Mr. Salafia several times, on the Bypass Slane forum which he used several times yesterday, to please enlighten me as to which post of mine was either abusive, factually incorrect or disruptive. He has refused to do so. Instead he simply has a policy of both censorship and denial of access to the site to anyone whom he feels is not toeing the party line. I am simply dismayed that such an important discussion should be left in the hands of a person who feels that there is no place for "balanced or moderated discussion" on his site. As for the Save Newgrange group remaining open - it is not open to me, or to anyone else who posted anything which Mr. Salafia did not agree with. My "offending" post? A response to the question "What's happening to Newgrange?" with the answer "A road is proposed to be built 500 metres from the buffer zone to the Bru na Boinne site. Nothing will be happening to Newgrange per se". For this I have been barred from the site. Russia is right.
RayKelley
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Jan 28 10 18:48
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Look, all I am saying is that I went to your group for infomation as I am genuinely concerned about Newgrange. However, what seemed to be informative posts were being deleted regularly. No matter what you say, this is wrong. If the info is legit and you cause is valid, then what do you have to fear from it ? I have not even visted the other group as I assumed that I would get all the relevant information at your group. Sadly, that is not the case. I am now very suspicious about your true motives.
RayKelley
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Jan 28 10 19:06
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Interesting points Maria. Mr. Salafia seems to be a bit paranoid. I am not too sure what I did to deserve such a huge response to my first posting! He seemed to assume that I was associated with the bypass group and I am not. I am also not too sure what the relevance of the 'Village Inn' is ??? Very odd...
Anyway, your comments have confirmed my fears that his site is not a reliable source of balanced information. Since I started to look elsewhere I have found out that the road will be over 3k from Newgrange and 1km from Knowth. The very busy N51 to Drogheda already passes though the big buffer zone around Newgrange (very close to Knowth and Newgrange) and that does not seem to cause a problem ! He says that the N2 in Slane is a medium risk road but I drove that road a few months ago and it struck me as being particularly dangerous.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 19:06
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Well, it appears to me that the attack that began on the Facebook group is now continuing here.
Instead of looking for common ground, and trying to discuss the real pressing issues, of protecting both lives and priceless heritage, you are both trying to turn this into a debate about internet forums, and making personal, unfounded attacks again.
Why don't you want to talk about the issues at hand, which you claim was your purpose on facebook in the first place?
Top of the list should be the HGV ban, because that is what everyone agrees on. The failure to implement it is what is putting lives at risk, not a facebook group.
Second should be the planning process, because that is what everyone has a right to participate in. A flawed planning process is what will hold up resolution of this issue, not any individual or group.
We are not in the business of hiding information. All of the newspaper articles on this matter, along with links to all of the relevant authorities, with all of the limited number of public documents and maps available on this are on our web sites. I wish I could say the same for the other group involved in this debate.
http://www,savenewgange.net
http://www.nationalmonuments.info
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/posts/379277
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 19:18
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The reference to the Village Inn, refers to another member of the Bypass Slane Campaign who decided to join the Facebook group and launch his own series of attacks; Fianna Fail Councillor Wayne Harding, who has his office in the Village Inn, Slane, according to the following letter in this weeks Drogheda Independent.
http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/think-before-you-decide-on-slane-2034067.html
Cllr Harding made a number of remarks on our site, to which I responded. Then he deleted them.
I have kept the abusive emails from the other members of the BSC group, and if the personal harassment of myself, or any other member of our group continues, they will be handed over to the authorities, and legal advice will be sought.
We have tried to be reasonable and co-operative, but obviously certain parties are intent on creating conflict. It is very sad, as I am sure it won't be long before there is another accident in Slane. And it won't be anyone's fault except the County Manager, who refused to implement the HGV ban.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 19:33
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It is the AA, not me, that says that the N2 is a 'medium risk' road.
http://www.aaireland.ie/img/maps/EuroRAP-Ireland-risk-rate-m.jpg
We are not misleading people by saying that the bypass is close to Newgrange, and I do not agree with your distances. The very first news report on this, by RTE, which was the trigger for our campaign, was entitled:
'Slane bypass would run close to Newgrange'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/slane.html
and begins with the heading 'controversy expected'
Knowth sits at the very edge of the World Heritage Site, which is 500m from the perferred route. It will overlook the road, as was admitted in the papers today too, so I am a little bemused by the fact that you seem to accuse us of fabricating information.
In fact, we are trying to get our hands on the archaeological reports, assessing the various routes, which the authorities have not made public.
RayKelley
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Jan 28 10 19:42
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Vincent, I was with you to start with but I am not so sure now…
To make a good decision, we need good data – you freely admit that you are deleting data, that seemed pretty reasonable to me, from your site. This is a pity because I think most of the people in that group probably have good motivations.
Ok the issues you raise in you last posting:
1.The planning process. Last time I checked the EIS was published for the Irish taxpayer to comment on prior to An Bord Plea**la decision. What is the problem with that? I saw an article where you are pointing out that CPO work had started but we all know how slowly the legal industry works especially with CPOs works in this country so I think that is not really a significant issue at the end of the day.
2.HGV Ban. A quick google search of ‘Slane HGV Ban’ yielded this from Meath County Council
http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/TownCouncilsandLocalAreaOffices/SlaneElectoralAreaOffice/SlaneElectoralAreaMeetings/File,39252,en.doc
“Eugene Cummins then explained that a series of interventions would be implemented to improve safety in the village. He emphasised that the permanent solution to Slane’s problems was the bypass. He advised that because the revised bypass route was shorter there would be less land needed and the delivery process could be speeded up. He further advised that banning HGV’s was not a viable option and that any diversions put in place would have serious impacts on residents along, and users of, the alternative routes thus transferring safety problems to other parts of the road network. He confirmed that legal advice obtained confirmed that Meath County Council and the NRA had a statutory requirement to consider the needs of all road users. “
This is what has annoyed me. You chose to promote the HGV ban but according to those who would have to implement, it is not viable! So either a) you decided to actively ignore the reason why the ban is not viable b) you are not a very good researcher (incompetence or corruption?). I think you were involved with the M3 so I suspect you are probably very good at research.
I always felt I should have been more active on the M3 and I never understood why more people did not get involved. However, after spending a few hours examining your activities on this bypass I think I now have my answer.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 19:55
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I don't freely admit I am deleting data. I freely admit I deleted intentionally disruptive opinion posts because our group was under attack. There was no reliable information in any of them. I am not the one running a closed shop, like BSC. We are not attacking the BSC group, they are attacking us. Why don't you call them up and ask them why.
Or ask Cllr Harding why he deleted his own posts and my responses along with them?
Ray, or whoever you are, it is always telling when someone is losing an argument, because they have to descend to making personal attacks on people's character and integrity. I am not going to facilitate that any longer, since you seem unable to debate the issues in logical way. See you at the oral hearing.
RayKelly
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Jan 28 10 20:05
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Vincent,
I did not attach you. I do admit that after doing some basic research I am pretty annoyed as I felt I have been misled by your campaign.
I decided to research a few more of your arguments.
1.The N2 is a ‘medium risk road’. A google search on ‘slane bridge deaths’ was interesting. According to this official document
http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Roads/MajorRoadsProjects/N2SlaneBypass/SlaneBypassPublications/File,39833,en.pdf
“The approaches to Slane Bridge are very steep, especially on the northern side with
gradients of nearly 10%, which far exceeds the desirable maximum gradient
recommended in the National Roads Authority Design Manual for Roads and
Bridges (NRA DMRB). The road also turns through sharp bends at both ends of the
bridge, making the existing road layout at Slane Bridge hazardous. There have
been numerous traffic accidents, some fatal, over the years, typically when heavy
goods vehicles (HGV’s) descend on the steep hill and collide with other traffic or
crash through the bridge parapet.”
I also found this very personal statement from someone who had a close call. Apparently 22 people have died!
http://www.bypassslane.ie/Final%20Norma.pdf
I am not the AA road expert but this does not sound like ‘medium risk’ to me. It would be good to get an update to date view from the AA.
Distances: Look I am not going to march down to Meath and measure the distances with you, but that wonderful tool, google, found this
http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Publications/PlanningandDevelopmentPublications/CountyMeathPlanningPublications/CountyMeathDevelopmentPlan2007-2013/File,6798,en.jpg
The N51 runs within a few hundred feet of Knowth (4 fields!). Last time I was on the N51 to Drogheda last year and it was very busy yet it does not seem to cause a problem for anybody. How can you accept the N51 but reject a bypass that (I now know) is obviously needed????
I care deeply about our culture but what has got us in trouble is when wild claims are made about development. Sadly, that is seems to be what is a happening again.
My mind is made up.
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 20:12
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Ray, I'm glad your mind is made up, so the rest of us can get on with figuring out what is really going on here.
Until the archaeological reports are made public, and all the evidence is given at the oral hearing, I don't think anyone is in a position to make a final decision.
We are a group of concerned citizens who want to protect our heritage and our taxmoney for that matter. The locals seem to want to spend it on destroying our heritage. All the information needs to be made public, and we would have been happy to work in co-operation with BSC or any other group to that end. Sadly, this has already turned into a circus, and I am sure there are a lot of people who are happy to see that.
RayKelly
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Jan 28 10 20:26
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I suspect we probably share a lot of goals and I really don’t care about the gory details of facebook wars.
It is a circus because a few hours spent with google seems to have ...well... pretty much destroyed most of your points. You have not responded to my points about a) how the HGV ban cannot be implemented b) how the existing Slane situation is obviously very dangerous c) the busy N51 passes closer to Knowth /Newgrange than this bypass and d) how the planning process appears to be trundling along on its normal merry way.
If you have any additional arguments I would like to hear them.
When there is a time when we have a real problem and our culture/environment is under genuine threat, no one will listen because of the type of mad claims you are making about this bypass.
RayKelly
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Jan 28 10 21:12
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Hello Vincent,
I would like to continue this conversation as it is obviously very important. I agree that that all “all the evidence” needs to be discussed and that is why google is my friend. I had not expected it but goggle has turned out to be lot more informative than the Save Newgrange group.
I have been very respectful and I think all my arguments have been logical and well founded.
Ray
RayKelly
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Jan 28 10 21:30
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Hello Vincent, Are you there ???
Your last claim that you are protecting the taxpayer from the locals in Slane who are “destroying our heritage” is a new rationale. You are on pretty thin ice there my friend given how much your M3 activities cost the state.
Hmmm….. open debate can be tough…. maybe he went back to ‘Save Newgrange’ where ‘everybody’ agrees with each other and sings ‘Kum bay yah’.
I care about our heritage as much as anybody else but people who play with facts to suit their own agenda really get up my gut.
Pathetic
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 21:34
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So, now you want to make up everyone else's mind for them as well. Maybe I should just call An Bord Plea**la and tell them to cancel the oral hearing, because you sorted the whole thing out on google in a few hours. But there are a few faults with your arguments:
A. The HGV ban was voted for by the democratically elected Councillors, on behalf of the people of Meath. As one observer recently noted, it would be brought in with a stoke of the pen. But I suppose all the councillors are mad too? There is no good reason it cannot be implemented.
B. If you really cared about the immediate threat to people in Slane, you would not be so quick to reject the HGV ban. Even BSC have it as one of their aims. But I guess they are mad too right?
C. The N51 is already there. Whether or not is should be is another matter, but it is too late for that now. We are currently dealing with a proposal for a dual carriageway, which is actually a continuation of the M2 motorway, running within 500 metres of the World Heritage Site. If the authorities choose to put it further away, then that's fine by us. But at the moment, the likes of Professor George Eogan, the world's expert on Newgrange, are very concerned. But I guess he is mad too, right?
D. The planning process is already flawed if the CPO process has begun before planning permission is granted. The public are meant to be given options, to choose from. In this situation, only one options is being given, and that is already being treated as fair accompli. Meath County Council issuing CPO notices is preempting An Bord Plea**la from making a decision.
I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about whether or not this road will damage Newgrange if you haven't seen the archaeological reports, and gotten an expert opinion for that matter. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose, but you should remember that is all you have; a lay, and uninformed opinion, without having reviewed the evidence.
I have an opinion too, about the planning process in Meath, where files disappear magically from the council offices, Meath County Councillors get pulled from by-elections for co-owning land with Frank Dunlop...who now that I mention it, lives just down the road from Slane; and so on. I bet a lot fo local landowners are delighted with the CPO because of the cash it will bring, and developments are already being planned. Meanwhile child benefits and old people's medical cards are being taken away to pay for this elaborate real estate development. Why don't you ask them if they want to pay for this bypass, and digging up 44 sites that are part of Bru na Boinne?
Vincent Salafia
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Jan 28 10 21:45
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Ray, I see you are back to mud-slinging and personal abuse, to try and get a reaction.
Now that is pathetic. You almost seemed reasonable there for a minute.
I am sorry I can't give you my undivided attention.
Goodnight, and good luck
RayKelly
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Jan 28 10 22:18
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Your back! Excellent – I am starting to enjoy myself.
First, I have been 100% respectful from the start. I do admit I have adopted a slighter lighter tone in later posts to try and quell my annoyance at being led up the garden path by Save Newgrange however this is now a matter of principal and honesty for me.
Anyway, let me get a beer first…ok. I will respond to each point:
“So, now you want to make up everyone else's mind for them as well”.
Hold on, I am sitting at my PC on a Thurs night doing some research so I can make a good personal decision. I have not set up a Facebook group to educate the world.
“The HGV ban was voted for by the democratically elected Councillors, on behalf of the people of Meath. As one observer recently noted, it would be brought in with a stoke of the pen. But I suppose all the councillors are mad too? There is no good reason it cannot be implemented.”
As you well know politicians will say anything to look good (and are probably mad). The only people who count here are the people who will have to implement the HGV ban. These are regular people in the county council and they they say it is impractical. Sorry.
“If you really cared about the immediate threat to people in Slane, you would not be so quick to reject the HGV ban. Even BSC have it as one of their aims.”
Sure, they have to try and use every tool in their box, but BSC and Meath County Council both agree that the bypass is the only real viable solution. (check http://www.bypassslane.com/index.html)
“We are currently dealing with a proposal for a dual carriageway, which is actually a continuation of the M2 motorway, running within 500 metres of the World Heritage Site”
This is a 3km long dual carriageway bypass of Slane – the M2 motorways stops at Ashbourne which is 15 mile away. Given the finances of this country I think we will not start another motorway for years. Oh, and by the way, it is 500m from the edge of the buffer zone . Knowth is actually 1km from the road and Newgrange is over two long miles away. Road noise won’t be an issue as the busy N51 is a few hundred feet away and nobody complains about that.
“The planning process is already flawed if the CPO process has begun before planning permission is granted. The public are meant to be given options, to choose from. In this situation, only one options is being given”
I’m still digging, but it seems that the route selection process seems to have been going for some time and many other routes were considered. It’s not the NRAs fault if you choose to only get involved now when most of the work has already been done.
“I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about whether or not this road will damage Newgrange if you haven't seen the archaeological reports, and gotten an expert opinion for that matter. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose, but you should remember that is all you have; a lay, and uninformed opinion, without having reviewed the evidence.”
I have not mentioned the work archaeology up to now. When the spade hits the ground I am sure they will find something. That pretty happens anywhere in this country especially in Meath. If they do find anything it will be handled properly. If they find the 8th wonder of the world, then I will listen to those who think a change is needed; if however, they come across the usual collection of souterrains, ditches and so on, then let the archaeologists record it and move on.
“I have an opinion too, about the planning process in Meath, where files disappear magically from the council offices, Meath County Councillors get pulled from by-elections for co-owning land with Frank Dunlop...who now that I mention it, lives just down the road from Slane; and so on.”
Vincent this is pretty low. So someone is guilty by association? Look I agree that politics in Ireland Inc. in a pretty dismal state right now buts let’s focus on the issue at hand. If you find hard evidence of corruption I will listen.
“I bet a lot fo local landowners are delighted with the CPO because of the cash it will bring, and developments are already being planned”
Well, according to the EIS several locals will have their houses demolished - that is not very nice. If a person’s land is CPO’d by the by the state then they are indeed entitled to compensation. That seems reasonable to me. I have heard stories of some farmers down on the M7 who pushed the boat out a bit but in principal I don’t see how this is possibly seen as a negative.
“….and developments are already being planned…”
Boy you are on a roll now…. Exactly what developments are being planned off the Slane bypass? I just checked daft.ie and there are over 40 houses for sale in Slane. That is a lot for a small village like Slane.
“Meanwhile child benefits and old people's medical cards are being taken away to pay for this elaborate real estate development”
Hilarious! Maybe they should tax children shoes to pay for the nasty bypass ?
“…and digging up 44 sites that are part of Bru na Boinne”
Wait a minute….. I am the lay person here and I am pretty certain that the 44 sites are actually outside the buffer zone as that is where the road goes…. I look forward to hearing exactly what these sites are. According to the EIS there are only 5 significant sites.
Keep it coming Vincent….
Tom Kelly
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Jan 29 10 00:20
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Ray, you are a troll, and a poor one at that. You imply or explicitly state that the man is deceitful, misleading, paranoid, pathetic and incompetent OR corrupt. Then you claim to be respectful!
You also claim impartiality, then disagree with everything Salafia says while taking any opposing view as gospel. Textbook trolling there, Ray my friend.
As a true neutral, I'm as yet not fully convinced by either of the arguments set out above but I'm not going to engage in debating the facts with you as I'm sure it would be an excercise in futility.
Glad you're enjoying yourself though, feel free to respond if it gets you off.
RayKelly
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Jan 29 10 01:01
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Hi Tom (any relation?)
Vincent did not help himself very well. He set himself up for ridicule as many of his assertions are obviously questionable after some basic research. Perhaps he does not like a good robust and open debate?
The majority of my sources are official documents; one was from the bypass group and I am sure they would not say 22 people had died unless it had happened.
His last comments was way over the top as he made all sorts of unsubstantiated assertions about protecting the taxpayer, residential development, corrupt politicians and cash grabbing farmers etc. If he wants to throw comments about legal advice around the place then he should look in the mirror first.
I found a lot of information that contradicts him. Maybe I am wrong but he has not responded to the *specific* details that I posted. I am still waiting….
Here are some more exact distances I have found when playing with google earth.
Distance from Knowth to existing N51: 0.7 miles
Distance from Knowth to Bypass: 1.5 miles
Distance from Newgrange to bypass: 2.14 miles
Look, if it turns out that there is a major archaeological find, then I will listen but right now it seems that a badly needed short bypass is going to pass through some country fields well away from Newgrange and Knowth. That seems a reasonable balance between the needs of our heritage and safety.
Peter Clancy
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Jan 29 10 05:55
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I respect the value of Newgrange and I am quite proud that we have such a beautiful example of such an old burial ground in Ireland that has been deemed worthy of UNESCO World Heritage status.
I also respect the value of human life no matter what walk of life a person takes or where they may come from and we should do our best to ensure the safety of the people wo share this world.
Mr Salafia set up an internet group on Facebook and it has gathered support and fair play to him as he is certainly very passionate about the existance of Newgrange.
If there is a major archaeological find I would be the first person to support a campaign to ensure a road is not built. That so far has not been the case so it is not worth using as a point in any arguement right now. I will invest my thoughts into such if there is a find.
I have a question though. Why is the campaign called "Save Newgrange"? You can only save something if it's existance or purpose is in danger.
The road will not alter the structure of Newgrange in any way whatsoever so it's existance is not endangered by the road at all? That is fact. It will remain untouched. The road is actually being constructed outside of the agreed buffer zone to preserve the site. The road will not even be visable from Newgrange and I doubt you will even hear a car travelling on the road from such a distance.
The only change to its physical appearance so far in time that has happened unnaturally is the restoration. What we see as Newgrange today is almost completely different in physical appearance to the 'untouched' burial chamber that stood there for thousands of years. If you look at a picture taken in the 50's of Newgrange it does not look like the modern day Newgrange. A picture taken in the 50's shows a real burial chamber that existed untouched before we interfered with it.
The purpose of Newgrange, the reason why it was originally constructed will not be changed either by the road. That is fact.
The only change to the purpose of Newgrange, a burial ground and temple, has been our insistance on turning it into a tourist attraction to satisfy ourselves and disrepecting the fact that this is a sacred place. We have added lights to the chamber and electicity. Those who built and carefully designed the chamber never intended to have light fittings in the chamber nor did they ever expect that thousands of people every year would be charged money so they could intrude upon the final resting place of people they deemed worthy of such an extravagant burial ground. It was a sacred place.
What about the big ugly modern and towering glass house that was built by Knowth. It is disgusting but nobody mentions that. Are those wanting to save Newgrange not concerned in the slightest by this disgustingly ugly modern eyesore placed directly beside and much closer to Knowth than the proposed road will be to Newgrange?
I respect that people are concerned about Newgrange but what are they really concerned about? The message is SAVE NEWGRANGE but what are they actually saving it from? Nobody has actually discussed this. I can only imagine that they are actually only concerned that a road would lessen the pleasure they take from visiting the site. I can't think of any other reason they need to save it as I have clearly pointed out above that the road has little actual impact on the existance of Newgrange or its original purpose.
Can somebody please explain what we want to save Newgrange from and how does the proposed road threathen its existance? You can't save something unless it is in danger so what is the danger to Newgrange of having a road 500m away?
The same thing happened at the Hill of Tara. People went crazy campaigning against a raod being built. I live quite close to the Hill of Tara and I can go there any day of the week to enjoy the experience of being there and standing on the site of a sacred place today. Nothing has changed.
The proposed bypass will save lives. If it is constructed Newgrange will still be standing, people will still be able to go there and enjoy the experience. Nobody has prosposed to damage Newgrange. Nobody is proposing to change it in any way, we have already done that.
Can somebody please explain to me what Newgrange is being saved from as I am more concerned about people going hungry in the world, including our own country, when there is more than enough food to feed everybody on the planet.
Closer to home I am concerned that there are a group of people who are campaigning to save something which does not appear to be in any danger whatsoever.
Maybe Mr Salafia can help explain why we need to save Newgrange from the proposed developement? Paint a picture in my mind of Newgrange if a bypass is built. I am sure he has thought about this as otherwise he would not have started the campaign. Paint that picture in my mind, detailing how the road endangers Newgrange. I have an mental image of the road after construction and I am struggling to actually see how it has an impact on Newgrange in any way whatsoever.
All I ask is a simple explanation. How does the road have an impact on Newgrange?
The road can be constructed and I can assure you of two things. 1) Lives will be saved and no longer needlessly lost in the village of Slane and 2) Newgrange will not magiacally start to fall down or dissappear because the road has been built. The road has no bearing whatsoever on Newgrange still standing in another 5000 years time.
Nothing will change. If you dont want this road 500m from Newgrange then why have you never campaigned to have the roads closer to Newgrange closed and re-routed too. Afterall, they are roads and you are campaigning to save Newgrange from a proposed road which obviously represents some form (as of yet logically explained) danger to Newgrange so why stop at one that is going to be 500m away. Have them all re-routed.
I would also like to ask how you get to Newgrange when you vist the site? Do you park your car 20 miles away so you dont use a deadly dangerous road which is capable of ruining Newgrange and walk the remaing distance. Maybe you take the bus and jump off 10 miles away and walk the rest of the journey so you are not contributing to the danger that a road represents to Newgrange?
I wish you well with your campaign but I have a piece of advice for you.
Next time you vist I would advise you to avoid the bridge in Slane as you could well be the next person to die on that stretch of road that actually represent a danger. A danger to the most precious thing on this planet. HUMAN LIFE.
Tom Kelly
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Jan 29 10 11:17
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Hi Ray,
I'm not sure if I'm related to you as I'm unsure of your exact name. Is it Kelly or Kelley? You seem to be unsure yourself. Troll!
Although, from taking a cursory glance at the maps and distances involved, I fail to see what the big deal is.
RayKully
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Jan 29 10 11:34
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Kelly, Kelley, troll… This is playground stuff and not relevant to the core issue.
What I do care about is establishing the *facts* about the Slane bypass and Newgrange. So far, neither you nor Vincent has successfully challenged my research.
“Although, from taking a cursory glance at the maps and distances involved, I fail to see what the big deal is.”
The big deal is that ‘Save Newgrange’ are predicting the end of the world if the bypass gets built but the bypass is positioned well away from Newgrange and Knowth outside the buffer zone. The N51 is closer than the bypass and that has not caused any issues.
Peter above asks a real good question
“Can somebody please explain what we want to save Newgrange from and how does the proposed road threathen its existance?”
Still waiting…
John Farrelly
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Feb 8 10 09:57
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There have been no deaths due to traffic accidents in Slane Village in nine years, since they changed the traffic flow. Yet in all the reports in the Meath Chronicle I read this is never mentioned. A lie implying that death is a constant visitor on the Slane bridge is been promoted to justify and promote a policy of road building that is leading to the destruction of our land, society and heritage.
John Farrelly.
Slane Resident
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Feb 19 10 13:21
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There has been a serious of going accidents even after the traffic calming was introduced. Just this Monday there was a crash with four cars on the Mill Hill. It was not so long ago before that that a runaway truck careered down the hill, missed the turn for the bridge, destroyed the big old stone gates outside the Mill House hotel before ending up in the ca**l. The traffic lights in the centre of the village regularly get destroyed by cars and trucks. Last year there was a nine vehicle pile up involving cars and trucks in the centre of the village.
In all these cases, it has been pure luck that one has died. Anybody who knows this area and thinks rationally knows that Slane is a very dangerous place. Would you prefer we wait until somehow else dies ?
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