Two Meath sites nominated for heritage status

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Have your say. Post a comment on this article.

• Jean Keary
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 01:52
  Comment: 1902
  
  

  I think this is a great idea. I vote in favour of the inclusion of Tara and Kellsas world heritage sites
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• Carmel Diviney
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 17:52
  Comment: 1906
  
  

  Dempsey ripped up the countryside with an unsustainable double tolled Motorway,desecrated 45 archaeological sites, decimated the Tara Landscape and now he wants us to get out and about to appreciate our heritage and culture! What planet is he on??? Time will tell if Unesco will give heritage status to the Tara Landscape with the M3 slithering through it like a giant black eel. Maybe Tara would be safer under foreign protection as our own Govt have made the situation into an international scandal of epic proportions.What a disgrace...
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• Colm MacNiallais
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 18:41
  Comment: 1907
  
  

  "I recommend all people to get out and about to appreciate our heritage and culture. I urge everyone in Meath to support these two superior sites and vote without delay."
  
  I didn't see Dempsey coming out to support Tara when he was trying to build the M3 through that sacred valley. What a hypocrite! Shame on him!
  Report this comment

• TaraWatch
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 20:04
  Comment: 1908
  
  

  Please sign our petition, asking that Tara be made a UNESCO site, but only on condition that the M3 is moved.
  
  http://www.savetarapetition.net
  
  Make your submissions before Dec 23 to minister@environ.ie
  Report this comment

• Bridget from Holland
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 20:37
  Comment: 1910
  
  

  This would have been wonderfull news 4 years ago but now I would say in dutch: Mosterd na de maaltijd. Literal Translation: "Mustard after the meal."Meaning: "Coming up with a solution too late. Hopefully this will reverse the damage already been done (for as much as is possible).
  Report this comment

• Colm MacNiallais
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 20:47
  Comment: 1911
  
  

  "I recommend all people to get out and about to appreciate our heritage and culture. I urge everyone in Meath to support these two superior sites and vote without delay."
  
  I didn't see Dempsey coming out to support Tara when he was trying to build the M3 through that sacred valley. What a hypocrite! Shame on him!
  Report this comment

• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 20:48
  Comment: 1912
  
  

  This comment has been referred for moderation

• joocke
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 20:58
  Comment: 1914
  
  

  Indeed, four years too late !!!
  
  One of the most beautiful spiritual places damaged for ever.....
  
  We in Holland support the "save the hill of Tara group" !!!!
  Report this comment

• marion
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 21:01
  Comment: 1915
  
  

  Well maybe what is left of Tara can be saved now,I agree with all of you here,but also hope the rest of the Tara landscape will be preserved.
  Report this comment

• Daviet from the Netherlands
  Unregistered User
  Nov 5 09 21:02
  Comment: 1916
  
  

  Already to late.
  
  They should have done this before they placed a highway next to and over a ancient historical landmark.
  
  Then they would have shown the respect to the Nation's history and local community who said NO to the highway and YES to the Tara Hill.
  Report this comment

• bored
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 03:12
  Comment: 1917
  
  

  Im so tired of hearing people complain about the M3 destroying Tara, it hasnt! the M3 is further away from the hill than the existing main road,yes there was drama over ancient burial ground but these would never have been discovered if it were not for the construction of the M3.
  
  It has made international news, thus promoting the Hill of Tara!
  
  Alot of the protestors at the hill were not locals and some not even irish...does this not show us that the locals support the M3 so why should others interfere?
  Report this comment

• Mollie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 12:30
  Comment: 1919
  
  

  The DoE consultation on the Draft New Tentative list
  
  http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/WorldHeritage/IrelandsTentativeList/
  
  should address whether the construction of a motorway through a world heritage site is a contravention of UNESCO World Heritage Convention
  
  http://whc.unesco.org/?cid=175
  
  UNESCO says;-
  
  What makes the concept of World Heritage exceptional is its universal application. World Heritage sites belong to all the peoples of the world, irrespective of the territory on which they are located.
  
  It is therefore valid for international comment to be made.
  
  The Archaeological Institute of America
  
  Top 10 Discoveries of 2007
  
  Lismullin HengernThe 2,000-year-old site is just over a mile from the Hill of Tara, traditional seat of the ancient Irish kings and site of St. Patrick's conversion of the Irish to Christianity in the fifth century A.D. The discovery of the massive henge, measuring more than 260 feet in diameter, confirms the long-held belief that the area around the hill contains a rich complex of monuments.
  
  http://www.archaeology.org/0801/topten/tara.html
  
  Lismullin National Monument reported by NRA 18 April 2007 BEFORE road construction commenced.
  
  http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/NationalMonuments/
  
  http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/NationalMonuments/FileDownLoad,14641,en.pdf
  
  http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/NationalMonuments/FileDownLoad,17214,en.jpg
  
  The World Monument Fund
  
  Tara placed on the list of 100 endangered monuments - said;-
  
  "The Tara Valley is the ancient homeland of those who forged Irish culture. As the personalities of these remarkable people are muted by a lack of recorded literature, archaeology becomes the sole resource for understanding them. Therefore, the destruction in Tara Valley of what is a two thousand-year old time casket is an injury to the people of Ireland, and a last resort. WMF Britain deeply regrets that sound academic advice on the unique importance of Lismullin, which recommends its preservation, is regarded as an inconvenience to be rejected in favour of this destructive and culturally insignificant road building scheme."
  
  http://www.wmf.org/dig-deeper/publication/2008-world-monuments-watch
  
  Smithsonian - USarnTara named as one of 15 Must-See Endangered Cultural Treasures
  
  Some of the world's most precious historic and artistic sites can be visited today—but might be gone tomorrow
  
  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/Endangered-Cultural-Treasures-The-Hill-of-Tara-Ireland.html
  
  The International Celtic Congress has called for the M3 to be re routed.
  
  The European Commission has initiated legal action against the Irish government over the M3, charging Ireland with failing to protect its own heritage.
  
  In all over 40 Sites destroyed including Ardsallagh cemetery 2050 BC to 700AD - in clear line of sight of Tara, a prestigious ( possibly Royal )burial place.
  
  Yes Mr Dempsey it is an honour that the Tara complex is on the DRAFT new Tentative list.
  
  The mystery is why it was left to Tara Campaign groups and individuals to nominate Tara to this list early this year. Rumour has it that Meath County Council failed to put in a nomination. We wonder why?
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• Henrie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 14:00
  Comment: 1920
  
  

  this a side that possibly belong to the world heritage tentile list because is the most beatifull and an spirituel strong place that has to remain for ever.
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• Judith Schoen
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 14:53
  Comment: 1921
  
  

  Good idea, but I hope it's not too late already ...
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• Robert McElroy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 15:57
  Comment: 1922
  
  

  Firstly, Noel Dempsey is the most nauseating and disgusting hypocrite that I have ever beheld ! He now does a jig of joy about the Tara Landscape being included after so much destruction 9which was needless destruction). The fact that the new sites that were destroyed, wouldn't have been discovered otherwise is irrelevant and a 'red herring'! The Point is they were discovered and should have been preserved and treasured!!
  
  Secondly, the Brundelstown Interchange is only 1200 metres from the Hill!! With the noise and pollution from that, the Hill itself will never be the same!!
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• John Farrelly
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 16:04
  Comment: 1923
  
  

  A UNECSO world heritage site designation protects for the common citizenry of the world heritage sites of immense importance. It is a well thought out process, it is ethical, educated and most civilised peoples are proud to have such designations in their homelands.
  
  Noel Dempsey's call for people to back a designation for the Tara Complex is bizarre in the extreme.
  
  Just two years ago he denied that such a complex existed and more than any other man, with the exception of Mr B. Ahern, he helped plan and push the M3 motorway through it, damaging it forever.
  
  Sites like Ardsallagh, Lismullen, Rath Lugh, Barronstown and Collierstown were bulldozed and most of them obliterated. Their human remains were taken away in plastic bags or left scattered across the valley for carrion to chew on.
  
  Now, what is in effect a huge jumble of roads, sheds and litter, is to be sent forward for a site designation.
  
  What right do these malignant men have to drag such a process into the gutter? As a people we should face the truth; the Tara Complex was destroyed by the same politicians who also destroyed our economy, environment and future. We should live with that.
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• Henk Linsdhout
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 19:10
  Comment: 1924
  
  

  This would have been wonderfull news 4 years ago but now I would say in dutch: Mosterd na de maaltijd. Literal Translation: "Mustard after the meal."Meaning: "Coming up with a solution too late. Hopefully this will reverse the damage already been done (for as much as is possible). It is always possible to act as the International Celtic Congress has called up to re routed the M3.
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• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 19:11
  Comment: 1925
  
  

  This comment has been referred for moderation

• Muireann Ni Bhrolchain
  Unregistered User
  Nov 6 09 21:16
  Comment: 1927
  
  

  Fintan O'Toole, says in his book, Ship of Fools, how stupidity and corruption sank the Celtic Tiger, p. 176.
  
  "This fantasy of absolute power over the landscape and its awkward remnants of history was symbolised in the crassest, but perhaps the most
  
  characteristic, action of the boom years: the driving of a motorway through the Tara/Skryne valley in County Meath. The Hill of Tara and its
  
  surrounding valleys are an ancient sacred landscape, with at least seventy major archaeological monuments, ranging from a Neolithic passage tomb to Iron Age ceremonial earthworks, in and around the hill itself.
  
  Because of the spread of commuter dormitories into north Meath and Cavan, it was deemed necessary to build a motorway. The planners and
  
  Fianna Fáil seemed to take a perverse pleasure in rejecting alternative routes and insisting that the motorway should go through the Tara
  
  valley. The sheer glee with which this was done was a symptom of a deeply neurotic kind of temporal arrogance. Nothing mattered except now.
  
  Paradoxically, this obliteration of a sense of historical time also suggested that the future would be pretty much like the present. The
  
  operative tense in the grammar of Ireland's boom was the present continuous. The idea of the future as a different time, with its own
  
  imperatives, was largely absent from the Tiger mentality. Sustainability – a concept that incorporates a sense of future into the present – was unthinkable. Thus the utter contempt for planning and environmental considerations expressed in Bertie Ahern's irritated complaint in 2003 that every big infrastructural project had to ‘go through eight hoops,
  
  through all environmental, planning and blah blah blah, and every blah costs a few hundred million', and his loftily surreal dismissal of all objections to motorway routes as being about ‘swans, snails and people hanging out of trees'."
  
  Dempsey characterises this attitude better than most.
  
  This double-think is coupled in this paper with the plan to build another super-road through Meath. Lets just dig up the whole royal county, cover it in concrete and forget about it. Lets save the rest of Ireland, Meath is past saving.
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• True irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 7 09 06:16
  Comment: 1929
  
  

  As message boards go this one is ever so slightly one sided ;). Firstly whats the story behind so many of our dutch contributors? Is the meath chronicle a big seller in holland or are they conected to tarawatch and flooding the board? Either way, what people on here have to realise is that the majority of irish people dont honestly care about tara or its history. Most would be hard pressed to locate it on a map and even fewer would have actually visited the site to see its beauty, and that applies to most of the people who posted here. If you feel the need to champion a cause,go right ahead, but you might want to give up on this one because the last time I looked the motorway wasnt far from completion. About 4 years too late for getting your knickers in a knot! I have little time for people who spout on about the preservation of tara when its development doesnt actually impact on them one way or another,and even less time for the people who fill up the boards with pc sound bites for the sake of it. Move on guys, its over.
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• Rod Aldrich
  Unregistered User
  Nov 7 09 14:03
  Comment: 1930
  
  

  Actually, surveys have shown more than half the people living in Ireland want the M3 rerouted. And just because you critics happen to live nearer to Tara than me, what gives you the right to sit in judgment on Tara? You are just a caretaker among the generations which have inherited my cultural heritage, the worlds cultural heritage. What judgment will be passed upon you by the millions of people of Irish decent or other peoples who want to experience an ancient sacred site in peace? And more to the point, if you mess up our heritage, who is going to suffer? I'll spend my tourist euros going to Stone Henge, or the old sites in the Czech Republic where people care to take care of their sites or who are just recognizing their value.
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• Carmel Diviney
  Unregistered User
  Nov 9 09 09:24
  Comment: 1935
  
  

  Humbug Irishness...Tara belongs to the WORLD. Any nationality has the right to voice their objections to the desecration of the landscape. Locals dashing to pay the double tolls oblivious to the consequences to future generations do not have the monopoly on heritage.
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 9 09 10:06
  Comment: 1936
  
  

  "Tara belongs to the world", really carmel, would you stop for a moment and listen to yourself. This is exactly what Im talking about..... sound bites ,waffle and a serious detachment from reality. Tara is still there and Tara is still intact, FACT. What has been previously stated, that the existing road is closer than the M3 is borne out by any of the photos published, FACT. Sure a visit to the site would confirm this, but to so many on here that would mean actually getting up off their a**es and going out into the real world instead of fighting the good fight from the comfort of their armchairs at home. The way People are going on you would think that the hill of tara had been erased from the face of the earth. Go and ACTUALLY look will you before you get on here making complete fools of yourselves. I didnt say that only irish people could contribute nor did I object to same, I asked why so many dutch ones were on a relatively obscure board and asked the question were they connected to tarawatch. But with regard to your dutch friend stating that half of irish people wanted the m3 rerouted, well thats simply untrue. Anyone can quote "surveys" to suit and add substance to their cause. Maybe Rod we could reroute the M3 through the giants causeway or do you have a problem with that as well?
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• Tommy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 9 09 13:50
  Comment: 1938
  
  

  Have to agree with True irishman, before you pass judgement walk a mile in my shoes, or before you pass judgement spend 3.5 hours per day commuting like a lot of young people have to do, including parents of young children that will miss out on a lot of time with their kids.
  
  The only protester I saw from the vicinity was when I was laid off for 3 months a couple years ago and had to get social welfare in the Kells area. This person was wearing a 'Ban the M3' T-shirt and due to the fact that she was also wearing pyjama bottoms I can only assume she hasn't commuted to a job in a while. Bloody joke. Contribute to society or the local economy properely, then come onto a message board with your airy fairy idealogical claptrap folks. Put up or shut up. The road impacts less than the current N3.
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• mollie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 9 09 21:17
  Comment: 1941
  
  

  Can I ask True Irishman and Tommy have you an opinion re the Meath Chronicle article under discussion and Noel Dempseys comments?
  
  I cannot figure whether or not you are in favour of the Tara Complex becoming a UNESCO World Heritage Site? The Government have now formally acknowledged that Tara is a complex and is not just The Hill. ( thus finally agreeing on this point with Tara campaigners.)
  
  The complex has been grouped with other Royal Sites Cashel, Dun Ailinne, Hill of Uisneach and Rath Croghan Complex. Do you think that is the right way forward? Should Emain Macha also be included.
  
  Kells has been nominated as part of a group of monastic sites. Will that be good for the town?
  
  In order for a site to be successfully inscribed on UNESCO's World Heritage List it must have unique Outstanding Universal Value and not just be of value in an Irish context.
  
  UNESCO also demands high levels of protection for nominated sites and requires a structured management plan or a documented management system for each site before it will be considered for inscription on the World Heritage List
  
  Do you think it will be possible for the Government to convince UNESCO that Tara Complex meets this strict criteria given that it will have a new motorway through it?
  
  World Heritage Sites managed sensitively can be major tourist attractions creating jobs.
  
  Would that be good or bad for Meath?
  
  Points to keep in mind-
  
  Unemployment - biggest increase over the past 12 months has occurred in the mid-east regions and the commuter belt around Dublin covering such counties as Kildare, Wicklow and Meath, with jobless figures up over 72%.
  
  Seven out of 26 counties recorded rising numbers on the Live Register in the past month — Mayo, Monaghan, Roscommon, Meath, Tipperary, Kilkenny and Kerry.
  
  Republic tourist numbers plummet
  
  Belfast Telegraph Friday, 16 October 2009
  
  I think Tara has recently been featured on Dutch TV
  
  The poll mentioned was conducted by Red C http://www.sacredireland.org/sacredireland.pdf
  
  Result 2 out of 3 say No M3 through the Tara Valley.
  
  Tommy, a commuter myself for 30 years so sympathise with you, especially as you will have to pay tolls to Spain for the privilege until 2052.
  
  http://report2008.ferrovial.com/en/index.asp?MP=328&MS=1930&MN=3
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 10 09 00:03
  Comment: 1942
  
  

  thanks for your comment mollie,I'll try and take each of your points in turn if I can. Firstly, I fully support the inclusion of tara on the world heritage list,unfortunatley kells needs to put in proper infrastructure in place before it could viably support any kind of large tourist influx so thats out of the question. With regard to the other sites mentioned, I dont have a particular opinion on them and no, I havent visited them. Unemployment has risen by astronomical numbers in the last 12 months and as you pointed out, the commuter belt counties hardest hit but I dont see the confering of heritage status to tara and kells as a solution to this problem. Tourist numbers are down worldwide, the fact that we got a lot of american tourists to meath was great in the boom years but now people are a lot more money and security concious and arent prepared to fork out a small fortune to see these sights. The irish mindset to tourism has to change, the "charge as much as we can" mentality has to go, but its still prevelant in towns such as kells to this day. I dont put a lot of faith in polls simply because your putting someone on the street on the spot. We all know what the politically correct answer to the tara question is so most people will go with that to avoid embarrassment but in reality its so different. How many protesters were at tara on its best day? hundreds? thousands? I saw something similar to tommys observation a few years ago, one solitary middle aged woman standing in the rain with a placard at tara, as the jcbs and trucks rumbled past. It spoke volumes about the irish attitude to the hill of tara. Ferrovial are just the spanish company contracted to run the m3 on a daily basis, its not an issue for me. The company that runs our nct system and driver testing is swiss, just another sign that we're in a global market now. Finally tara may have been on dutch tv recently but it still doesnt explain why they all were drawn to the meath chronicle message boards?
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• tommy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 10 09 13:57
  Comment: 1944
  
  

  I agree about the toll mollie but thats a central gov decision and anyhow you can't put a price on 2 hrs extra per day at home to spend with family. I personally only use the N3 3 or 4 times a year to go up to Dublin so my point is not coming from somone who has anything to personally gain out of the new road. There is plenty of infrastucture (including motorways) running through the Loire valley in France which is one of the biggest UNESCO WHSs in the world, you can't halt progress. Again I would put forward the point how many of the people in the poll you mention live in Meath, and how many Dutch people travel from Virginia to Sandyford every day. Zilchio.
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• mollie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 10 09 20:07
  Comment: 1946
  
  

  
  
  Hi True Irishman and Tommy thank you for taking the trouble to reply.
  
  This is a huge subject with many ramifications - may I just make a final response to a few of your points -
  
  you say
  
  " I dont see the confering of heritage status to tara and kells as a solution to this problem. Tourist numbers are down worldwide"
  
  Martin Cullen said earlier this year - It is essential that Ireland places itself as a premier destination for the many tourists for whom experiencing culture is an important component of their holiday."
  
  Research carried out by Fáilte Ireland indicates that the largest segment of potential visitors to Ireland are in the category known as sightseers and culture seekers. This sector makes up over half (50 to 60%) of Ireland's overseas holidaymakers each year.
  
  I would have thought that Meath with in its unique position as the cradle of Irish Heritage would jump at the chance of attaining UNESCO designation for monastic Kells and the Tara Complex.
  
  Ireland will have to fight for every bit of trade and commerce and find new ways of attracting those elusive tourists.
  
  Surprised that you talk down Kells. Since the Heritage Centre closed with massive debts the chance to attain World Heritage designation for Kells ( it has been nominated as one of a group of monastic sites, Clonmacnoise, Glendalough Monasterboice etc ).
  
  could well be of huge economic benefit to the town.
  
  Another point ;
  
  "Ferrovial are just the spanish company contracted to run the m3 on a daily basis, its not an issue for me."
  
  Its a bit more complex than that. ( and as you say applies in many cases - so much money flowing out of Ireland )
  
  The Concession Company Ferrovial will of course operate and maintain the road ( the concession ends 2052 ). The profit from the tolls will go to their shareholders and in a no lose situation the Irish government has to pay Ferrovial compensation if traffic falls below established minimums( numbers not disclosed). As traffic levels are down since the Toll contract was signed you as a taxpayer may well find it is an issue for you.
  
  M3
  
  The toll road runs 50 km between Clonee and North Kells, to the northeast of Dublin.
  
  Toll rates are inflation indexed.
  
  Revenue sharing with the Government if certain traffic thresholds are exceeded.
  
  The concession agreement establishes guaranteed minimum traffic levels and the Irish government has to pay the Concession Company compensation if traffic falls below the established minimums.
  
  http://report2008.ferrovial.com/en/index.asp?MP=328&MS=1930&MN=3
  
  Tommy - sorry I had the impression you are a commuter - it turns out that I drive the N3 more often than you!
  
  It has to be a personal choice to live in Virginia and commute to Sandyford - and pay six tolls a day- wow. Now the price of houses and apartments in Dublin are dropping perhaps fewer people will make that choice.
  
  You may not personally gain out of the M3 but taxpayers have a lot to lose if the guaranteed traffic levels don't materialise.
  
  Check out the NRA Traffic counter - its not looking good! http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N03-17.htm
  
  The Loire Valley is a huge region of France how can it be likened to the Gabhra?
  
  The Tara Complex is more often compared to Stonehenge, Avebury and Associated Sites one of the U Ks biggest tourist attractions and a source of revenue. The UK Government are struggling to meet UNESCOs concerns that the nearby roads have a detrimental effect on the setting of the monument. As a start the A344 road near to the stones is to be closed and grassed over. What to do with the A303 is an ongoing problem. http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/373
  
  That brings us back to where we started - Can the Tara Complex be a World Heritage Site - can it meet UNESCO demands for high levels of protection for nominated sites, a structured management plan or a documented management system for before it will be considered for inscription on the World Heritage List given the M3 will be running through the Site?
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 11 09 00:45
  Comment: 1948
  
  

  Mollie, it would appear that you absolutely nothing about kells from your comments. I'm not talking it down, Im stating facts. The "heritage " centre closed through huge debt as stated,but there were circumstances which certainly contributed to that. The council decided to leave the kells cross outside to endure the elements and traffic pollution while leaving an artificial one inside.Then they roofed it with perspex which rapidly went green. What a joke! it was badly run and mis-managed while visitors numbers NEVER reached anywhere near the break even point (even in the boom years) its main source of income was coffee and cake mornings from the mothers from the local schools. And you think becoming a world heritage site will change that? All of a sudden we will be swamped by tourists drawn by the new status? Who are you trying to kid here? Martin cullen may talk about how important it is for tourists to visit here but is he not stating the obvious? As for the figures you quoted from bord failte, how many visitors did the hill of tara have over the last 10 years? Any figures there mollie? You stated that one of the biggest tourist attractions in the uk is stonehenge. The biggest tourist attraction in ireland is... yes, you guessed it. Dublin zoo! Not tara or any of the other sites that you feel so passionately about. Not even in the top 10, So lets have a little less of your pontification mollie tarawatch. Its important to you, its not important to the vast majority of the population in this country and this county in particular, who have to endure the 3/4 hour a day commute, but thats ok in your eyes because the preservation of tara is paramount above all else. Despite how hard you shout and try to talk down to people its the realities of everyday life which make your argument sound so hollow and selfish.The government gave the contract to ferrovial, not tommy or myself, it was their decision to farm it out overseas. You think this is the major talking point when the a**holes in power just spent 30 billion on a bank thats effectively dead and another 54 billion on nama that my childrens children will be paying off long after Im gone?Lets prioritise mollie please.Finally your comment about it being a personal choice to live in virginia and work in sandyford just made me laugh at your blatant ignorance and total lack of compassion for the situation. Thousands of couples were driven out of dublin in the 90's through unrealistic house prices, out to places like cavan at a time when there was no talk of a tolled motorway but you make it sound like a lifestyle choice. Your attitude is truly astonishing. This recession wont last for ever, and when its over, the M3 will prove to be a fast an effective route to the capital.It wont be cheap but what in ireland ever was except talk?
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• Carmel Diviney
  Unregistered User
  Nov 11 09 17:56
  Comment: 1952
  
  

  Google Meath Master Plan. This was the solution to the Tara debacle. It was formally presented to the Govt, was the subject of Parliamentary Questions and drew a March in Dublin but it was completely ignored. There is no logical explanation for that (other than corruption and money trails) but I guess true irishman and tommy will have a good ol' go at it anyway just for the sake of it.
  
  By the way, using the recent Tara Symposium in UCD as just one example, it was stated there by two seperate leading academics and archaeologists that the new Motorway will encroach ONTO the Hill and yes it does at Blundelstown at the huge 6 lane intersection- much closer to the Hill than the N3. But then you were pretending not to know that from the maps already werent you, and the survey results...Sound bites, waffle and serious detachment from reality? Someone fits the bill here but it's not us.Throw that at the Govt or tell it to your kids when they ask you why...
  
  We can agree on one thing- it's a pity more people didnt get off their backsides and go to Tara.
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• Carmel Diviney
  Unregistered User
  Nov 11 09 17:56
  Comment: 1953
  
  

  Google Meath Master Plan. This was the solution to the Tara debacle. It was formally presented to the Govt, was the subject of Parliamentary Questions and drew a March in Dublin but it was completely ignored. There is no logical explanation for that (other than corruption and money trails) but I guess true irishman and tommy will have a good ol' go at it anyway just for the sake of it.
  
  By the way, using the recent Tara Symposium in UCD as just one example, it was stated there by two seperate leading academics and archaeologists that the new Motorway will encroach ONTO the Hill and yes it does at Blundelstown at the huge 6 lane intersection- much closer to the Hill than the N3. But then you were pretending not to know that from the maps already werent you, and the survey results...Sound bites, waffle and serious detachment from reality? Someone fits the bill here but it's not us.Throw that at the Govt or tell it to your kids when they ask you why...
  
  We can agree on one thing- it's a pity more people didnt get off their backsides and go to Tara.
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 05:14
  Comment: 1959
  
  

  Carmel get off the soap box and face facts. Nobody except you and your little group cares about this. Its done, stop crying about it and get on with your life. Boo hoo, theres a motorway there, so what? Get a hobby or something because this sort of obsession is not good for you. Google meath master plan? Get a life.
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• mollie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 10:30
  Comment: 1961
  
  

  Carmel - thanks for that - I looked on Google -
  
  The MASTER Plan (standing for Model Archaeological and Sustainable Economic Region) reduces commuting, offers transport choices, eliminates double road tolls, cuts emissions and energy use, increases tourism and employment, saves the Tara/Skryne Valley and more, creates a UNESCO World Heritage Park and designates a sustainable development zone.
  
  submitted the MASTER Plan to the Ministers for Transport and the Environment, and that elements were also relevant to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. But full cabinet approval was being sought due to the national and wide-ranging importance of the proposal. Details have also been sent to Meath Co. Council
  
  http://www.meathmasterplan.com/summary.html
  
  I wonder if Meath Chambers are aware of this proposal? They of course are concerned that the two tolls will have an adverse effect on the local economy. I hear there are also concerns in Kells that the HGVs will still drive through the town to avoid the toll - much the way they are sticking to the N2 through Slane to avoid the M1 toll.
  
  There is plenty of noise on Boards about how to avoid the M3 tolls.Batterstown mentioned.
  
  Of course there is no money left to repair local roads - so many ramifications… ..
  
  When Meath Chambers met the NRA -
  
  Meath Chambers agreed to lobby for one toll only on the M3 to be located at Blackbull.
  
  NRA said the Motorway will not reach full capacity for 50 years.
  
  http://www.kellschamber.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=1
  
  Perhaps elements of the MMP will be picked up in the Tara Skryne Landscape Project
  
  which is being developed by Meath County Council Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Heritage Council.
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• tommy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 13:55
  Comment: 1963
  
  

  Lets just stop doing everything because it encroches on somebody or something. Lets do that. Then Google Ireland in ten years time see what the result is. I would be willing to guarantee that any motorway or road that has ever been built in this country or any other has had architectural ot archealogical impacts on the landscape it crossed. Carmel did you make sure you had a full archaelogical survey done on the house/apartment complex/estate you live in? Humm methinks not.
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• Carmel Diviney
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 15:31
  Comment: 1967
  
  

  Mollie we are wasting our time on people who would rather be peed on.There is enough credible, substantiated fact within these posts for any observer to filter and light upon. Lets not waste our valuable time any further. Thanks tommy and true irishman for giving us the opportunity to post facts and alternatives - and for making us look good up against ye LOL
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• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 18:52
  Comment: 1968
  
  

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• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 21:45
  Comment: 1970
  
  

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• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 12 09 22:55
  Comment: 1971
  
  

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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 14 09 06:07
  Comment: 1980
  
  

  tut tut, find the last comment offensive did you carmel? what a shame. At least you got one point right on the entire board, you ARE wasting your time. See you at the next tarawatch meeting, Im sure we can come up with some reasons as to why the M6 shouldnt have been built, or is that a little too far for you?
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 14 09 06:12
  Comment: 1981
  
  

  by the way, carmel and mollie are using the one ip address.. Interesting.
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• tommy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 14 09 10:49
  Comment: 1982
  
  

  fair play to them irishman, they're minimizing their carbon footprint by using the same ip address, reduce, reuse, recycle...;-)
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 15 09 06:35
  Comment: 1984
  
  

  Tommy, if you want a little light reading, google carmel diviney.Then go to the one about the local elections in swords I think. It will give you a real insight into her political aspirations.
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• tommy
  Unregistered User
  Nov 16 09 13:31
  Comment: 1987
  
  

  Isn't it great to be able to shout and roar about the M3 when you have the luxury of the M1
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 18 09 18:42
  Comment: 2003
  
  

  yep, its great to be so passionate about something that at the end of the day, doesnt affect you in any way shape or form. Hope swords wasnt built on some ancient burial mounds or were never going to hear the end of it from miss deviney. Oh no, hang on, that would effect her so can we assume that swords will remain unmolested? Happy digging.
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• mollie
  Unregistered User
  Nov 22 09 14:25
  Comment: 2029
  
  

  The Comptroller and Auditor General's report showed that the tolled M3 Clonee to Kells motorway, which is due to open next year, will cost TAXPAYERS €727.4m in total over the next 42 years. - Irish Independent
  
  http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taxpayers-face-multibillion-euro-motorway-bill-1884883.html
  
  All TAXPAYERS paying for the M3 are entitled to voice their opinions.
  
  If the people of Meath alone have a say then it would be only right and fair that Meath pays all of the €727.4m bill. On top of this will be payments due if traffic falls below an undisclosed level.
  
  Facts are facts - no matter how you try to obscure them with your smoke and mirrors.
  
  To return to this story in The Chronicle you will find the NRA website a fascinating insight and it may help you form an opinion about Tara and WHS tentative list
  
  http://www.m3motorway.ie/Archaeology/
  
  http://www.m3motorway.ie/Archaeology/Section2/
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 22 09 15:01
  Comment: 2031
  
  

  "All TAXPAYERS paying for the M3 are entitled to voice their opinions"
  
  I couldnt agree more mollie, which brings us nicely back to our dutch contributors who have paid nothing towards the M3. Are you now saying that they shouldnt be on here giving their 2 pence worth? Interesting, considering that they were invited to by a certain member of tarawatch.
  
  Who mentioned that meath people alone should only have a say? This was a government decision, not made in navan trim kells or anywhere near here so why are you getting into the realm of "if"?
  
  Its that type of comment that have alienated tarawatch and groups like it from the mainstream population and are viewed with suspicion and scorn. I have seen first hand some of the tactics used by some tarawatch members on other boards to try and discredit contributors that hold an opposing veiwpoint.
  
  In an ideal world the M3 wouldnt be there, but were not living in an ideal world. Paying hommage to the past is one thing, doing it at the expense of our future is quite something else! The cost of the delays while certain people went to court to stop the M3 and the subsequent digs that followed cost the taxpayer many millions but you have the brass neck and get on here and lecture us on the true cost to the paxpayer? Wake up mollie, do you hear that? Its the fat lady... and shes singing!
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• Pauline
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 03:24
  Comment: 2037
  
  

  Sorry ... I couldn't read all of this...
  
  True Irishman… actually most people care – they are worn down by a totally ineffectual and probably corrupt political parties… without those who truly cared about Tara in the past you would be calling yourself "True Britishman"
  
  The Meath People did have their say in Public Consultation and they voted for the route heading west of the valley beside Killmessan..
  
  Strangely, Meath council then told the Planning tribunal to disregard public consultation as "not a legal necessity", nothing dodgy in that?
  
  Tara cannot make UNESCO listing with the M3 because as from the environment ministers own working group it lacks the important "integrity - free from the adverse affects of development".
  
  UNESCO are sick of people building motorways beside ancient monuments. See stonehenge.
  
  If they don't delay again, they will try to put Tara in as a isolated monument where as it actually is part of a hidden landscape and hope UNESCO will let them away with it. This also is unlikely.
  
  For this they are nominating as part of Kingship sites.
  
  But the annals tell us that apart from the High Kings residence, there were also residences of the 4 Provincial Kings around Tara which they used for the 6 weeks of the feis, these held up to 1500 soldiers (all that was allowed).
  
  The position of these are unknown but take a 6 mile radius and try not putting motorways or such in them and we'd probably be able to learn alot more about this in 10 years time when geophys and the other tools are full mature and we can get an almost perfect picture of the past.
  
  Then we can decide where to develop, until then does it not seem like a good idea to re-route with the new Leinster Orbital and direct stuff north of Navan rather than South...
  
  How small in the area between Drumshuaughlin and Navan.. in fai
  
  ess, Mr Dempsey did make Meath Council stick to the rules with the railway line, why we can't combine this will the motorway segment from Drunmshaughlin to Navan I never know...
  
  Lastly, the M3 section from Drumshuaghlin to Navan being turned into a heritage park is a solution to the Tara tourist dilemma – like Killarney national park – donkeys and bicycles…
  
  With something like that to explore, people would stay in the area rather than doing a CIE trip from Dublin
  
  ... money money money
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• Pauline
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 03:26
  Comment: 2038
  
  

  
  
  Has anyone who says it doesn't impact go up to Tara regularly.. I had a tourist with me last June who asked what the big brown blob was..... Oh.. that's Rath Lugh, it's an outer fort defense of Tara... hmm why's it brown... they dug a hole in it for the M3... you only live there and you believe everything your told...
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• Pauline
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 03:34
  Comment: 2039
  
  

  
  
  AS for those with the 3.5 hour drive.. it would have be quicker and cheaper to go west... and you could now have had a motorway (sadly still with the crappy tolls...) and the railway for the less than what we've had to spend...
  
  it was 65 million less for the M3 going west..
  
  it was then 100 million for to re-open the railway line....because no infrastructure would be destroyed.
  
  It was 670 million for the current M3 which blew up to over 1 Billion because of the amount of archaeology which Conor Newman warned them in 2001 would be found in its path.
  
  We could have saved time, arguments and over 300 million by routing it correctly in the first place.
  
  As for obsessions, there are worse ones like gambling with money that isn't real....
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• ******
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 03:37
  Comment: 2040
  
  

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• Pauline
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 03:38
  Comment: 2041
  
  

  
  
  ps. they haven't nominated Taar yet.. it is only going to an internal working party...
  
  Like last years premature announcement... we are merely being party to an announcment which does not reflect the true nature of what is happening...
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• true irishman
  Unregistered User
  Nov 24 09 05:30
  Comment: 2043
  
  

  Pauline, are you trying to say that our freedom as a nation is exculsively down to tara and the people who supported it?
  
  Just stop and look at what you wrote please and just think for a moment.
  
  I wasnt aware that the men who fought and died for irish freedom in 1916 were regular visitors to the hill of tara..........Was it some kind of weekend retreat for the founding fathers of this nation? I must have been absent the day they were teaching that in history class.
  
  Saying most people care about tara is a vague and very much a sweeping statement,and saying the people of meath had their say is plainly untrue.
  
  
  
  SOME did have a say but you make it sound like the entire population of meath was canvassed on this.... Trust me, we werent! I live in meath and I wasnt offered a vote on tara, wasnt even aware there was one. Ive yet to meet ONE person who had their say in that public consultation you quoted and just as a matter of interest just how many official objections were there to the M3? Out of a population of 4,000,000 give or take.
  
  Millions,.......... thousands,......... hundreds perhaps,....... a few dozen???? I think we both know the answer to that pauline.
  
  Its like playing tag with various tarawatch members here, each one spouting the same tired lines, sound bytes and blinkered views of the whole process until finally giving up, then passing the baton onto the next TW member to repeat the whole sad process over and over again!
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• Lizzy
  Unregistered User
  Mar 14 10 14:26
  Comment: 2678
  
  

  True Irishman and Tommy, I'm so tired of 'tards like you. Is it tiring to be so stiff-necked? Your ignorance is exceeded only by your confidence.
  
  You are outdated and boring. Maybe YOU should get a life yourselves.
  
  There is so much plain common sense here but not from you. No wonder you see the politicians' side so.
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• mollie
  Unregistered User
  May 24 10 16:29
  Comment: 3113
  
  

  Meath County Council
  
  M3 Clonee - North of Kells Motorway Scheme 2002
  
  Case reference: PL17 .MS2004
  
  6. Written Objections and Submissions made to An Bord Pleanala :
  
  There were, effectively, 311 written objections submitted to An Bord Pleanala within the time specified in the Notices in respect of the Motorway Scheme Order
  
  and 76 written submissions in respect of the Road Development were made to An Bord Pleanala within
  
  the time specified in the Notices,
  
  Recommended reading -
  
  Inspectors report 6 (MS2/RMS2004.pdf, PDF Format 818kB)
  
  http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/MS2004.htm
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