Published: Wednesday, 7th July, 2010 4:58pm

Council to close Slane Bridge for structural investigation

Slane bridge will undergo a structural investigation next week.

As the controversy over the proposed Slane bypass continues to rage, Meath County Council is preparing to close Slane bridge next Monday night and Tuesday morning for a structural investigation.

The temporary road closure will alow the council assess the condition of the bridge and what repair works are necessary on the structure, which has been damaged over the years by traffic accidents and fallen trees in the river hitting it.

The bridge, which has been the scene of many fatal accidents over the years, will be closed from 9pm next Monday night to 6am on Tuesday morning.

Northbound traffic will be diverted from the N2 through Kentstown and Navan, onto the Navan-Slane road and southbound traffic will be diverted along the same route.

The investigation comes in response to visible damage to the arches of the bridge believed to have been caused by fallen trees being swept along in the current and striking the bridge over the years.

The eastern wall of the bridge has also been repeatedly damaged over the years by traffic accidents.

Meanwhile, as Meath County Council continues to prepare its response to An Bord Pleanala to a further information request on routes to the west of the village, the owner of Slane Castle, Henry Mountcharles, said the western route identified runs in close proximity to the rear of the castle, cuts right through the heart of the estate and an area of special conservation near a national monument.

"It is ludicrous in the extreme. This route is twice the length of the submitted route and is vastly more expensive and would completely obliterate a hostel and farmhouse," he said.

The western route was not included in the environmental impact study prepared for the current application and had been discounted by Meath County Council several years ago as a result of feasibility studies.

Lord Mountcharles said that because the western route had not been included in the planning application or EIS, he had not made a submission on the issue to An Bord Pleanala. The deadline had passed and he was now denied the right to make a submission. His son, Alex Mountcharles, had made a submission, but only on the proposal before the planning board.

Cllr Wayne Harding said there was no viable route to the west and the people of Slane had waited long enough. "The selection process has gone on for the past 10 years," he said.

Meanwhile, the Save Newgrange campaign is calling on the Meath County Manager, Tom Dowling, to immediately implement a ban on heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) in Slane.

They point out that over 1,200 HGVs a day pass through Slane, destroying the fabric of the village, and posing a serious threat to local residents.

"The HGV ban in Slane should be implemented immediately, in the interests of public safety, now that a final bypass decision has been delayed," said Vincent Salafia of Save Newgrange.

"An Bord Pleanala may reject the Slane Bypass proposal outright, as it passes through a candidate Area of Special Convervation (SAC), which runs both east and west of Slane, along the Boyne. A final decision on the bypass could be years away, and public safety of local residents must take priority," he said.

Mr Salafia claimed there was no logical reason for the council's refusal to implement the ban, other than to "unfairly pressurise the planning authorities" into approving the bypass.

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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 8 10 08:31
Comment: 3392

Mr. Salafia now seems to be Slanes best friend as he campaigns vigorously for a HGV ban. I wonder is there a possibility that he only wants the HGV ban as he believes that this is best way of stopping the bypass that is obviously need by those in Slane?

There was a very interesting discussion with someone who claimed to be a Mr Salafia in the comments section of this article:

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/meatheast/articles/2010/01/27/3994333-bypass-a-matter-of-life-and-death-slane-group-tells-protesters-/

Some of the highlights include:

1.He freely admits that he deletes postings from the ‘Save Newgrange’ web site if they don’t agree with his point of view.

2.He claims that he ‘Bypass Slane’ groups is nothing but a front for FF.

3.He claims to be protecting the taxpayers of Ireland from the fiendish people of Slane who want a bypass (this is from someone who costs the state a fortune as a result of his M3 activities)

4.He claims to be have received abusive emails from the bypass Slane group but does not provide any evidence.

5.He claims that the some Slane locals are only for the bypass to get CPO cash

6.He claims that new housing developments are already planned off the bypass.

7.He refuses to acknowledge that the county council have already said a HGV ban is unworkable

8.He claims that the bypass planning process is flawed.

9.Finally, he claims that the exiting N2 is only a ‘medium’ risk road but 22 people have died...
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C. Flower
Unregistered User
Jul 8 10 19:16
Comment: 3395

It's clearly a really difficult problem to solve. Surely though one thing everyone should be able to agree on is that Slane should be made safer immediately, by effective physical means of traffic calming and enforcement ?
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 9 10 14:52
Comment: 3399

We already have traffic calming which does stop the trucks and other traffic from thunderng down the hill. After the nine vehicle pile up last year, new speed limits of 30 kph were introduced but these are ignored by the vast majority of those that pass through Slane. The local Garda station does not have continuous cover and they have a huge area of the county to police already.

The only true solution is the bypass.
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 9 10 14:55
Comment: 3400

Oopss....Just noticed that the previous post should have read:

'We already have traffic calming which does NOT stop the trucks from thundering down the hill ...'

;)
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Skye
Unregistered User
Jul 9 10 21:42
Comment: 3406

As a Slane resident, I too find it sickening in the extreme that Mr Salafia is now putting himself forward as Slane's best friend when his stated position is to deny the people of Slane a life-saving bypass for their village. He is well aware that a HGV ban is unworkable in Slane and that this bypass is closer to Slane village than Newgrange. The people who oppose this road seem intent on ignoring, or are ignorant of, the topography of the village of Slane, perhaps because the majority don't live in Slane and don't face the dangers we do on a daily basis. The Western route was discounted during the route selection study several years ago because it is more circuitous, expensive and would go through KNOWN archaeological sites. And incidentally, where WAS Mr Salafia when the original route was chosen approximately 5 years ago? The route selection process for the Slane bypass was also on public display for public consultaton. Let's not get carried away here, as several journalists have chosen to do for the sake of an interesting headline, all An Bord Pleanala have done is asked for information as to WHY the western route was not selected...it has not advised the County Council to re-visit a Western option. It would seem appropriate that the Board would seek this information, in order to rule it out, as the Council did. Anyone who has ever put in any application for planning would be familiar with the term "further information required"
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Tommy
Unregistered User
Jul 10 10 10:19
Comment: 3408

I said it before and I'll say it again Salafia needs to keep his nose out. It's none of his business. He's not from the county.
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Mary
Unregistered User
Jul 13 10 10:39
Comment: 3418

Mr. Salafia seems to have some interesting supporters in his campaign to deny Slane a bypass. This quote is from his 'Save Newgrange' website

"...the Myth of the Invented Dead, a myth which says 3 minor accidents in nine years is carnage. White crosses, obese politicians and corrupt journalists weighed in behind it, to hide the truth..."

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=438725795435&topic=12858

Invented dead ? Wow. Perhaps that question should be directed to the families of the 22 deceased....

I wonder why Mr. Salafi, the 'saviour of Slane', has not deleted this post ?
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Seany P
Unregistered User
Jul 13 10 21:19
Comment: 3427

I wouldn't worry about it he lost on the M3, and lost bad, he and his group will also lose on this. ;-) Good man Vinnie, we're all laughin at ya!!
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 14 10 06:45
Comment: 3438

Actually, whether you like Vincent Salafi or not, the HGV ban makes sense. Whats the point of putting motorways in Meath if they're not going to be used? I kinda think Meath people should stop and think about what is actually happening in their county rather than re-acting to each comment as if its "other" people who are the problem.

The M3 would have been built ages ago, if they had actually followed the public consultation results, perhaps as you imply some people would still gave been against it but most would have accepted the western route and the number of monuments destroyed would have been less.

The current traffic on the N3 is 15,0000 a day rather than the 25,000 guaranteed for the M3,

if these are not our business then why should we pay for it? Will the people of Meath pay the Eur 29,000 a day???

Can you not step back and see your councillors wait until the last moment when you are desperate for any route, or as with the landscape legislation when you can't check out the facts, before forcing through the route to suit their mates...

The real losers in this equation Meath, you are losing a tourist bonanza...its like the idiot that shoots himself in the face to show the the other idiot that he can do what he likes...
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 14 10 06:50
Comment: 3439

ps...Slane Citizen, possibly you should identify yourself...so we can tell your really from Slane ;)
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 14 10 10:26
Comment: 3445

Hello Pauline,

1. I assure you I live in Slane. Every day I have to dodge the 1000s of HGVS and cars that thunder through our heritage village.

2. You would want to be careful about saying bypass campaigners think the problem is with “other people” when you go on to say “I kinda think Meath people should stop and think”.

3. The majority of the capital and running costs for the M3 are paid by the private sector. If the tolls don’t meet the expectations then I think it is reasonable that the govt pay the difference. Traffic is down due to the recession and will return to expected levels at some point.

4. I do agree that the PPP process does have issues (eg two tolls on the M3 is a bit crazy) but in the main it allows the nation to get the infrastructure it needs with the cost being paid back over time (much like a mortgage). If I had a choice I would do away with all tolls and instead add 10c to every litre of petrol – that way the more you drive the more you pay.

5. We are not desperate for “any route”. A proper route selection process has been going on for years. Numerous routes, including a Western option, were looked at over many years and the proposed route has emerged as the preferred option.

6. The bypass will actually help tourism as it will allow visitors quick and safe access to the Ledwidge cottage museum and in addition, it will allow safe access to the Newgrange visitor centre for those visiting from the north. The bridge will provide a wonderful view over the Boyne and will also provide some very attractive new walking routes for tourists. The bypass will be miles from Newgrange itself and will be barely visible from Knowth (have a look at the before and after pictures here http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=58848&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=286896560291&id=100000673604505)

7. Pauline said “Actually, whether you like Vincent Salafi or not, the HGV ban makes sense”. Pauline you seem to suffer from the same problems as Mr. Saalafia. He has been repeatedly told that Meath County Coucil have already looked at a possible ban and have said it is not feasible, yet he keeps droning on about how a HGV ban is the perfect solution.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/TownCouncilsandLocalAreaOffices/SlaneElectoralAreaOffice/SlaneElectoralAreaMeetings/File,39252,en.doc

"Eugene Cummins then explained that a series of interventions would be implemented to improve safety in the village. He emphasised that the permanent solution to Slane's problems was the bypass. He advised that because the revised bypass route was shorter there would be less land needed and the delivery process could be speeded up. He further advised that banning HGV's was not a viable option and that any diversions put in place would have serious impacts on residents along, and users of, the alternative routes thus transferring safety problems to other parts of the road network. He confirmed that legal advice obtained confirmed that Meath County Council and the NRA had a statutory requirement to consider the needs of all road users. "

8. How exactly will the bypass route suit the mates of the councillors? This is a pretty serious allegation. I hope you have evidence to back it up…

Thank you
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 19 10 09:19
Comment: 3496

Thanks for replying.

1. I do understand this. I grew up on the not so historic main Limerick road in Portlaoise.

We were used to our gardens and pillars being hit on a regular basis. People used to die on the corner about 50 meters from my house on a at least yearly basis. The night before my leaving cert, the car my dad was in got hit. He was ok but we had that awful moment when we could see the car in bits but weren't close enough to know. Still it did get rid of my leaving cert nerves.

The bridge down the road got taken out by HGV's on a regular basis, I used to run through it coming home from school or wait until it was through if there was a big truck coming. They've solved this by putting a huge steel rail that takes out the trucks instead. When I stayed there last year, the rail took out at least a truck a week that I saw for the two months I was there. You still wait till the trucks are through before walking through, though you can see from their speed that they aren't going to stop. Portlaoise is bypassed now so they can actually avoid it now by coming in the Abbeyliex road instead. Most of the truckies I saw beside their destroyed trucks couldn't speak that much English so I assume they couldn't read the big flashy sign that said you won't make it. Still not great for the poor mothers with prams running through, but it's easier to clean up. I never thought about it this way before but maybe that's why I'm a HGV ban fan ;)

2. You have to admit a lot of Meath people get very impassioned about strangers interfering? I assume there is a reason behind this, but I've never said I didn't want a M3. I just said not there. I'll defend my stance and have had to on numerous occasions as logically as I can. But people keep yelling at me that I don't want people to get home from work, which I do and that I would protest at anything, which I don't. I am really concerned about the Slane bypass because it seems to be a piecemeal solution to a problem that would be better solved by bringing up the Lenister Orbital. I want to understand why everything always seems to be planned piecemeal and always heading towards an archaeological area. For me it seems simple, major motorway development should be north of Navan, south Dunshaughlin, west of Kilmessan with the M1 west. Neither the N3 or N2 should be upgraded within the valleys. So you have a loop around with M3 and M2 looping east and west at Dunshaughlin on an upgrade R125 or new road and the Lenister Orbital looping the North. I was quite surprised but pleased you replied and seemed to be willing to answer my questions.

3. Do you really think so, they are aiming for 25,000 now and the N3 is currently around 15,000 daily. The HGV traffic is going to ignore it cos the tolls are too high. So are local Meath residents. I'm not sure those working in Dublin will be keen either as their jobs aren't so secure. So we're talking a minimum of 10,000 tolls a day that need to be made up.

I can't find the NRA traffic guarantee numbers today but they have them rising steeply over 1,000 and more a year.

I can't see the current or future toll predictions happening in the next 10 to 20 years?

That's probably at least half the life time of the motorway tolls and while houses are cheap in Dublin people will only live in Meath for lifestyle reasons. And the tolls work out about 78,000 over a 30 year working life. Investment will only come if there is good lifestyle, this is why I think the landscape plan is important for Meath.

(http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20091118.XML&Ex=All&Page=2)

As for the cash, motorway costs 1.2 billion but we pay archaeology costs... opps.

The government, ie the Irish people who's business it isn't have already shelled out "an expected €652 million, of which €477 million has been expended" in November 2009 in direct costs which is archaeology because Meath Council insisted that this route was the best for archaeology and the Bord believed them not our Tara archaeologists who insisted it was the worst. The whole motorway routed correctly would have cost only 700 million. So we already have paid for Meath council's decision - note this is not the Meath people who actually choose the western route in Public consultation. Hence my suspicion about Meath councils motives, who buys a more expensive motorway?

Not to mention the fact that at the beginning of the Pleanala hearing Mr Guthrie Project engineer for the Council told me and the Bord that Public consultation was the main reason for the proposed route being chosen, then I waded through 40 pages of discussion ensuring I was being fair, took my spreadsheet out, did all the sums to see if there was any realistic way with the figures provided they could justify the result that public consultation was in favour of the current route. Satisfied I had been fair and thorough; I concluded that the western route was the clear public consultation winner, only for Mr Butler from Meath Council to tell me and the Bord to ignore it "as not a legal requirement", which we both did. Me, with a little more bitterness for my lost hours... Here's the fruit of my wasted labour ;0 http://globalartscollective.org/acf/permission.htm

4. That's an interesting idea, I quite like it. Would have worked well during the tiger, most of my friends are now struggling as it is. Though with the deals they were given on the M3, all gain no risk I would have loved to invest in it myself (on of course the basis they used the western route). But they probably wouldn't have offered us 90% cost guarantee. Personally, that would have been my favoured option as at the time we had a lot of money, why not invest it in ourselves. If we had something like guaranteed 15 percent per annum pay back, it could happily be a really good pension plan. Especially, these days. We still could, I'd be up for a Lenister Orbital investment since it will turn out to be a major route if done properly and especially if it re-routed the M3 (not that I'm obsessed or anything ;) ). Give the M3 Consortium a stake as payback for the M3 re-route and the contract to build. Considering a proper better traffic and train network would help Ireland back on its feet many other Irish people who live abroad would feel the same. May actually work. I am not paying for NAMA but good infrastructure. Yeah. I'm still in. Of course, I'd want to read the contract first ;0 I remember eircom which I didn't buy luckily.

5. Do you have a link for these? I'd like to see. My problem isn't really with the route but whether HGV traffic should be going near Slane at all, even on a by-pass. It doesn't make sense. You need the Lenister Orbital with only local delivery traffic heading inwards. Slane is a really nice town. It should be a place people live in and where other Meath people go for relaxation. In fairness they had a long process for the M3 and they still came up with a report that a Leaving cert student would have got an F for. Summary matrices that didn't convey the intent of the authors, so...that means they're not summary matrices, they're pretty pictures that mean nothing. You've got something great in Meath, it just feels like its being eroded away piece by piece. You should see the doco on Portland where they developed sensibly and are reaping the rewards now. People want to live there so people want to invest, one leads to the other.

6. I'm willing to be convinced though they said that about Rath Lugh and the M3, you can understand if after the M3 fiasco I am a little skeptical when Meath Council tells me something. I am a fan of the green heart theory (mine alone) which is keeping major infrastructure outside the boundaries above. People yelling on both sides don’t really help anyone. I’m more worried that this part of a constant erosion into the archaeological landscape. Why is the Lenister Orbital proposed south of Navan? The Slane by-pass seemed to be part of something bigger. And when someone talks about vast tracks of land, you think.. well it’s 10% of Meaths land and will be the only green space until Dublin bay. We really need to spend money and geopyhs the whole thing so we can know were we can develop, but even I can’t see the government doing this.

7. Ah yes, please forgive me for my continued skepticism but why? What drew this person to this conclusion? What was examined? Between Ashbourne and Slane there is very little to be seen that would have 1000’s of trucks coming into the area. The ban should extend to the N2 after Ashbourne. Though the big steel rail does stop trucks in Portlaoise, not exactly pretty though. They should be using either the M3 (much as I’m not happy about that) or the M1. Surely in any business it is worth getting some money out of the punter rather than none, especially as a road does not suffer too much from extra traffic, though I have to apologise to poor Rath Lugh that will. Are we going to never talk to the road haulers? Ah yes I suppose we’d have to have a government that does stuff for that. As I was saying, a big fan of the Lenister Orbital, the road they should have built in the first place. Then we have to trucks use them, this is why they were built.

8. How exactly will the bypass route suit the mates of the councillors? This is a pretty serious allegation. I hope you have evidence to back it up…

Ok, you’ve got me there. I will have to rely on circumstantial evidence but I think I’ve got a very strong case.

1. Why did none of them object to a route that was more expensive and had warnings that archaeological digs would, as they did, delay it and blow out the cost from 750 million to 1.2 billion. If I was representing the people of Meath, I’d be very worried about that. A route that also added cost to the rail line opening and could have delayed it.

2. Why did they scream blue murder when they saw the tolls and conditions and like all good politicians use the mood of the country which was very much against the M3 to secure which they could have at that stage, we were still in an economic high, a cheaper more viable solution funded in part by the extremely willing taxpayer. Getting a M3 and the rail line opened in tandem.

3. That’s ok, they could just be incompetent for all this to happen. Then the Lenister Orbital is proposed south of Navan, no options of routes north of Navan where there is obviously no hassle developing to your hearts content. Why? Especially after the furore of the M3, knowing that development the LO will be restricted on the North by Navan town and in the south by the Tara landscape. The biggest piece of luck Meath will get, direct south and direct North, perfectly positioned for developments but we’ll put it somewhere where there will be issues. Unless you want issues, but why?

4. But then the infrastructure this was all about is all pretty much in place, every other council is putting up their pride and joy soon to be money making tourist venture as it is now a UNESCO site and on the major tourist radar. Did Meath Council? No. Even as everyone knows the economy is wrecked and suddenly tourists are all the rage again. Two UNESCO sites could mean Meath would be more than a day tour, bringing accommodation etc.

5. But the icing on the cake is the M3 is almost opened and the landscape boundary commission was merrily doing its business. All the Councillors, TD’s were invited but only two attended. No interest in the process until a week beforehand when they let a mighty roar across Meath that these people were going to stop locals building barns and houses. Do I want to stop local Meath people building barns and houses.. nope. Do I want to stop them building shopping malls and large housing estates in that area, yes. Call a meeting, yell a bit , scare people, Why? They want to abandon the plan, not modify it? Why? Landscape designation only stops large scale development. The Lenister Orbital will be perfect to service large scale development.

Only these people would be impinged, so it must be these people they are representing.

My submission says - let the people in the area work out the planning rules with the archaeologists.

Slane by-pass worries me, because it could lead to an upgrade to motorways of the N2 and with the Lenister Orbital going south of Navan and Slane, this could be the start of more development which impinges on Newgrange. Am I going to write a million letters to the papers about Newgrange, nope. I really want to save Tara and the Tara landscape because I think it is 1. the source of truth about our history and 2. it’s symbolism is a gift to our nation that has served us well, it seems a shame to destroy the well that sustained us for so many years.

Slane may be experiencing an unfortunate by product of an environment of mistrust that started with the bizarreness of the M3 decisions. If you could tell me in honesty that this would lead to nothing else, I'd be happy to drop my objection to the by-pass. But Meath council doesn't stick to guidelines or development plans, as they are not "legal requirements"
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 19 10 09:27
Comment: 3497

btw.. the Councilors that attended the Boundary discussions were not the ones that are objecting.. and there should be a why did they not scream blue murder ;0

In fairness, if ye had a good politician you could have got the M3 for pretty much free..

74-98% of people supported it being moved.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 19 10 09:30
Comment: 3498

I would have done like John Howard did in Australia with the East Timor deployment, if ye want it pay for it. They'll be a 5 dollar extra tax on everyone's bill at the end of the year and you know what there were no objections.

600 million, 90% of the cost of the western version would have been 120 euros one off tax per person, in the era when it was 50 euros for a communion present.
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Mollie
Unregistered User
Jul 19 10 20:31
Comment: 3501

It’s a funny old world. A HGV ban for Slane and its environs is ruled out because the council was “deeply concerned” a HGV ban would create problems for residents elsewhere - meanwhile a HGV ban is considered for Kells because as

predicted the northern M3 toll is being avoided and vehicles are still going through Kells.

What is more it seems its OK to direct them onto the old N3 road south of Kells to avoid the Toll - and then what - driving on through Navan ? No problems for residents there then?

Meath Chronicle

Wednesday, 14th July, 2010

Kells may look at HGV ban as trucks remain in town

Number of lorries passing through remains high

“Cllr Sweeney pointed out that there was no toll on the by-pass of Kells. Some trucks and cars were bypassing the town, but then going onto the old N3 at Kilmainham to avoid paying the toll.”

How many tolls are collected each day? Remember any less than 26000 toll payments and the taxpayer pays the shortfall and the money to pay the shortfall will have to be borrowed and borrowings will cost more -Moody's have just slashed Ireland's credit rating has downgraded Ireland's rating by one notch to Aa2, blaming high debt levels, weak economic growth prospects and the huge cost of bailing out the troubled banking sector.

The M3 started at a cost of a Billion euro just got even more expensive - who knows what the final cost will be.

A map of the M3 on the Eurolink website illustrates how ludicrous was the decision to construct the current twisting route.

http://www.eurolink-m3.ie/index.aspx?menu=5&context=1
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 20 10 00:59
Comment: 3502

Yeah.. What i forgot to mention on my rather large blurb was that the western route kept on winning the route selection criteria but it was Meath council that at each turn that dismissed it.

It would have been rather easy at the planning hearing approve the M3 up to after Dunshaughlin by-pass and after Navan. Say do a geophys of the western route and if this shows less archaeology we're going that way. But who fought tooth and nail at the last moment for the current route, Meath Council. The disappearance into a job in the State's Discovery programme and non-appearance at planning of Anna Kilfeather, who had no experience in the Tara area, to explain her strange archaeological findings quite frankly worried me.

It just doesn't make sense and from the complaints to the paper, the M3 is way to near Dunshaughlin to give them their lives back. Who wants to be crossing a motorway in your daily life. Again the solution would be to go further west.

It may not be because of corruption but it doesn't make sense.
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 22 10 00:23
Comment: 3514

Wow Pauline ! that is quite a response. I will try and address the most relevant of your many points

1. I am glad that you can empathise with the problems of HGVS and heavy traffic. Mind you I would hope that in Slane we can come up a more enlightened solution rather than using a steel rail to "take out trucks". The Slane bypass will provide a safe route for those who have to drive through Slane and will also provide a safer environment for the residents of Slane. The obvious and logical solution is to build a bypass just like they did in your hometown, Portlaoise.

2. You missed my point Pauline. You gave Tommy a hard a time when he complained about people outside of Meath getting involved yet you (from Laois) obviously think it is ok to lecture the people of Meath on how they should think. This, my friend, is the pot calling the kettle black.

3.I have struggled a bit to understand the curious geography of your proposed routings of the Leinster orbital, N2 and (rerouted!) M3. What I can distil from your missive though is that there is nothing there to solve the problems in Slane. You state that the Leinster orbital should be north of Navan and trucks can travel ‘inwards’. This seems to ignore reality. Contrary to what you may think there are many places where trucks need to make deliveries along the N2 between Ashbourne and Slane. Asking a truck in Finglas to drive around the Leinster orbital to make a delivery on Slane is nuts. What happens if the truck needs to go to Kilmoon or Kentstown...oh they have to trundle through Slane...damm....we are back where we started even though we spent a couple of billion on Pauline’s Leinster orbital.

4.With regard to the M3 and costs etc you have obviously spent a strangely large amount of time focused on this very specific issue. I think that PPP in principal is a good idea but it is being hampered because the method of recouping costs is flawed. Using physical toll booths is an 18th century concept that discourages traffic from using the new infrastructure. Using the existing tax collection bureaucracy at the petrol pump is a far more efficient way to recoup costs and I am confident that would resolve any problems you have with M3 traffic levels.

5.With regard to the fact that MCC has stated that HGV ban is not feasible you say "Ah yes, please forgive me for my continued skepticism but why? What drew this person to this conclusion? What was examined?". Pauline do you know this area at all? A 5 year old child (or even your Leaving cert student) can tell that a HGV ban is not practical. The HGV ban would do just send the traffic over minor roads into other villages like Duleek and Kentsown. It would do nothing to address E/W HGV traffic which will be able to use the bypass to get onto the N2 safely. It will also do nothing to address the 1000s of cars that rumble through the heritage village of Slane slowly destroying the fabric of our 1700th century buildings that you do not appear to care for very much.

6.In your first posting you implied that the Slane bypass route was selected to "suit the mates of the councillors". I challenged you to provide specific evidence and your response with a rambling tirade of issues related to the M3. Again I ask you, what evidence you have that the Slane bypass route was selected to "suit the mates of councillors". I really don’t like people who throw around very serious allegations with no evidence to back it up. That is cheap.

7. Finally, and bizarrely, and you admit that "Slane may be experiencing an unfortunate by product of an environment of mistrust that started with the bizarreness of the M3 decisions". Now I am mad. My family’s safety is being threatened by the existing trafficin Slane yet you freely admit that you are crusading against the bypass because you don’t like how the M3 worked out. You drone on with madcap notions about knocking down the M3 just after it opened yet you refuse to provide realistic alternatives to the Slane bypass. Please come back to planet earth Pauline.

I don’t have a problem if you want to object to the solution to the problems in Slane but if you do that, you are obligated to come up an alternative solution that is practical and workable.

If you don’t, then my children will have to dodge the trucks just like you did when you were a child.

Thank you

BTW, Mollie, the reasons why a HGV ban in Kells is practical is that a viable alternative route exists (ie the M4). We don’t have a viable alternative in Slane as we do not have a bypass.
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Mollie
Unregistered User
Jul 22 10 09:28
Comment: 3518

"BTW, Mollie, the reasons why a HGV ban in Kells is practical is that a viable alternative route exists (ie the M4). We don’t have a viable alternative in Slane as we do not have a bypass."

BTW Slane Citizen - the M4 runs nowhere near Kells !! It passes through Meath about 40 K south of Kells.

At Kells it seems The HGV s are being directed onto the new Kells bypass and then on to the N3 ( this is the old Dublin - Cavan road ) on order to avoid the M3 toll at Grangerath. Presumably they stay on the N3 through Navan?

The question comes to mind " Do you know Meath at all?"

( you clearly dont know much about how the chosen route for the M3 came about or how much it will cost...not one of the 300+ who made submissions to An Bord Pleanala back in 2003 then?
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 22 10 10:43
Comment: 3519

Ops – fair comment Mollie. I was thinking about Enfield and the M4 where I am sure they have toll dodging issues also. Apologies as I was somewhat exhausted about working my way through Paulines extensive ramblings.

With regard to Kells, as I mentioned above, the problem is caused by the 18th century method of paying for the road. Toll booths will always cause problems no matter which road they are on.

You obviously have been checking this site frequently as you responded to my slip up very promptly. Is there any reason why you choose to ignore the other points I have raised?

Maybe you can tell us exactly what evidence exists to support Pauline’s assertion that the Slane bypass route was selected to suite the “mates” of the councillors?
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 28 10 05:29
Comment: 3546

SlaneCitizen - Yeah, sorry about that I try to keep it short... ;0

1 But it didn't work.. I think my explanation showed that. Initially I was only trying to explain I understood but as I formed my answer, the problem is it didn't work, the road is still dangerous, the only thing that worked is a roundabout on our road that slows the traffic outside our house.

2. Ah, I think there may be frustration on all sides, perhaps because this debate has been hijacked on all sides ;0 I'm not trying to tell you how to think, I'm just trying to get an alternative view across, and sometimes that's hard.

At the beginning of Tara, I was told that public consultation was huge on the M3 but when I looked at the documents I saw it was huge but then ignored when it supported the western route near Kilmessan. It took me year to get this point across.

What I am trying to do is stop misinformation and point out this is a piecemeal approach to the problem but I do take your point ;0 But you have to accept that the heritage sites in Meath also belong to all Irish people and we have a right to protect them from a perceived threat and Meath's councils behavior has not been normal.

3. To get to Slane - go up the M1 turn right across the Lenister Orbital, current timings from Google,N2 43.0 km 34 mins, M1 63.5 km 46 mins. How many trucks do you really believe that will need to go along Ashbourne to Slane, that can't be routed right to the M3 or left to the M1 at Ashbourne? I tried to look up the population of Kentstown but it was too small to even register as a small population center.

The trucks that need to go to Kentstown will probably be the same trucks that need to go into Slane anyhow and won't use the by-pass. Slane will still need deliveries. It's the ones that are avoiding tolls you need to get rid of. Or is there some huge industry in Kentstown that I am missing?

I was told that there were thousands of trucks going through Slane and this was the issue. I guess you need to define the problem clearer to me, what are the trucks, where are they going and what are their purpose? How many trucks really need to go to Slane and Kentstown daily?

4. I don't have problems with M3 traffic levels, I have problems with the promises the NRA made which were unrealistic. At this stage, my opinion is the only way to avoid fines and the fact that the M3 is pretty much a white elephant is to have a combined M3/Lenister Orbital toll road and talk to the Road Hauliers. My opinions is a petrol tax now will stress the economy further but I don't particularly disagree with it. I think we're in vehement agreement that this was a mess and so perhaps we should move on from this one?

5. Actually I read the entire M3 Planning permission documents, and the conclusions didn't match the data, this is what I am talking about. I asked for a link to the facts that they based this conclusion on? I understand I cannot reach a conclusion on a unsupported statement but then neither can you.

This is what I was talking about having a full solution rather than piece at a time. When we patched the N7, it was part of a full solution not just to bypass a town. As I said previously, we need to talk to the Hauliers, get a solution and remove non local traffic to the M1 and M3.

Not shuffle them from Slane downwards, but bring traffic around the whole area, M1,M2,M3 to Dunshauglin,Ashbourne. Upgraded R125 across linking L.O, M3, M2, M1. Lenister Orbital (LO) across North of Navan. A picture - http://tinyurl.com/22pzlkg

I guess the question is do you think it's necessary to then upgrade of the N2 to full M2? But what happens when the hauliers ignore that too. It is not only Slane residents that are affected by this, what about Irishtown? With two motorways near by, you can't tell me you agree with people not using them? I think you need to give me a little more information, where are the 1000's of cars going?

6. Slane Process - I have not done an analysis of this but Meath AHS has.

Again we get the three tiers of how the M3 process was corrupted from selecting what was the correct route.

These processes comes from Meath Council, and given the ability of Meath Council to put a 30km limit on traffic through Slane, it is not for the benefit of Slane residents. I know they did this for villages on the N7. So whose benefit is it for? Theirs or the much maligned term "mates"? As Sherlock Holmes says ""Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

1. Guidelines, that are applied or not applied at whim 2. Summaries that do not reflect fact and 3. Weighting of results.

In this process again we have the appearance of " technical summary vague and misleading" and "the extent of constraints and weighting in analysing the preferred route design and impact" and the guidelines "in respect of a 30kph speed limit, the MCC Director of Services, Mr Eugene Cummins, reported to Meath Co Council (6 July 2009) that Ministerial guidelines 'identify that the use of the 30 km/h speed limit on a permanent basis should be limited to locations where there is a current or expected concentration of vulnerable road users' but he also advised that ;the guidelines also specify in 5.6.2. that the permanent 30 kph speed limit must not be applied to a national road.' ". Where as in the M3 process they testified that breach of process was OK, because "guidelines were only guidelines and not legal requirements".

http://community.meath.ie/mahs/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=1

I would have thought that since the an Bord Pleanala found that they had a problem with these issues in the M3, that it would have been more careful the Slane By-pass EIS.

So that summaries such as the statement you proffered previously could be matched by the facts supporting them. A five year old child could do that too...

Clarity would answer the concerns of many people, and if you are correct and this is the best solution then we would be able to see it. Currently we are not. What reason could there be not to be clear, if you are not trying to subvert the process and then the question remains,

Why?

Why not implement the 30 kms speed limit and a speed camera, they could do with the cash. After all as Meath Council says "Guidelines are only guidelines"

ps.. Here's the EIS to check yourself whether this is true

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Roads/MajorRoadsProjects/N2SlaneBypass/SlaneBypassPublications/

7. No. I am suspicious of the Slane by-pass because of previous and I don't see the need if the M1 and M3 are being used properly. I did propose another solution and I'm willing to support yours ;0

You have not answered my question of where the traffic is going and how much needs to go through Slane. Also why not a 30 kms speed limit?

To get to Slane, you can always use the M3 and you don't use the bridge in question.

No other county in Ireland has two distinct motorways in such close proximity.

Sorry, I'm not crusading against the by-pass, I am as I said previously though I am still crusading for the M3 to be moved ;) Yep, will admit its mad-cap but then I think it's even more madcap to leave it in the side of Rath Lugh.

I am not the person stopping your children being safe, and the children in Irishtown who also have to go to school.

I am someone who is concerned for the Irish archaeological landscape within Meath. If Meath Council cannot get their act together to put forwards clear and overall plans that convince me that this is happening I do have a right to express my concerns.

I am asking for you to explain but as yet I cannot see why such an amount of traffic should be going through Slane in the first place. Disperse the unnecessary traffic then see whether what is left requires this by-pass.

Maybe the solution is your petrol tax then make the roads free. But that's not whats being proposed, its a by-pass and only for Slane. Then they make another motorway for the rest? We need a full solution, not piecemeal.

Actually, I think I've come to the party on the petrol tax though this will allow the government to push lots of money into companies such as Siac's pockets without anyone noticing that we are paying over the odds. How do we solve this? How do we stop getting ripped off. But then this is your solution, not supported by politicians so perhaps your as madcap and off the earth as me. My initial solution to the M3 re-route was that we would have a $20 Euro one off tax to re-route and everyone would be happy but they didn't listen to me either ;0

The facts for me are that the problem with other towns will still remain even if they by-pass Slane, the solution is to ensure that non-local and heavy traffic uses the motorways. Even if it does take a little longer.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 28 10 05:34
Comment: 3547

and apologies for being long ;)

p.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 28 10 05:48
Comment: 3548

ps you know your comment on it being good for the Museum ;0 MAHS don't seem to agree.

2.1.4. Ledwidge Museum: The proposed new road will pass very close to the Francis Ledwidge Cottage Museum and will have a detrimental impact on the access to, enjoyment of, and experience of the museum and its associated heritage and views. This is not sufficiently evaluated in the EIS.

Of course he might have been worried about the hole in the side of Rath Lugh and the archaeology and landscape of Meath too ;

Francis Ledwidge had a special love for Tara and shortly before his death, he wrote in a letter to Ms. Katherine Tynan “If you go to Tara, go to Rath-na Rí and look all round you from the hills of Drumcondrath in the north to the plains of Enfield in the south, where Allen Bog begins, and remember me to every hill and wood and ruin, for my heart is there. If it is a clear day you will see Slane Hill blue and distant…”
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 28 10 13:55
Comment: 3552

Pauline,

1. So your solution to the problems in Slane is to a) reroute the M3 and b) to build the Leinster orbital . Do you really expect this to happen given the finances of this country? We need a solution founded in reality Pauline. At this point you proposal is so off the wall you are either incompetent or disingenuous.

2. Stand at the crossroads ion Slane and you can quickly discern the traffic patterns. The majority of traffic is N/S which makes sense as the N2 is the main artery to Derry and the NW. There is also quiet a bit of E/W traffic also. The bypass will solve all of these problems,

3. We already have a 30km limit in Slane. The only people who respect it seem to be locals. We not have a sufficient Garda presence to police it. Even if it was policed (say using cameras) there is widespread recognition that this is stop gap measure

4. “To get to Slane, you can always use the M3 and you don't use the bridge in question” This is pathetic. This means you have to drive through the middle of Navan and then all the traffic will still plough though he middle of Slane and onto the steep hills on the N2. I’m not going to waste any more of my time pointing out how crazy some of your harebrained solutions are.

5. I hate to burst your bubble Paukine but the people who actually run Ledwidge cottage (I know them personally) are very happy with the bypass. It provides safe access to the museum along with new parking for buses.

6. Finally, I am still waiting of the evidence that the bypass route was selected to suit the “mates” of the councillors. You need to provide evidence or else withdraw the allegation ,
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 29 10 05:14
Comment: 3558

You seem to be avoiding the main question which is where does the traffic going through Slane intend to get to? We need to define the problem before we can define the solution. The common consensus what previously that they were avoiding tolls, you seem to indicate otherwise but fail to inform me why?

1. Problem is we need to start thinking long term at some stage. You still didn't mention about other towns on the road that are subject to the same pressures and calling me incompetent when the NRA and Meath council has proposed two major roads going the same direction less than 10 km apart is a little harsh don't you think? In my job when I create summaries from business data they actually reflect the reality of the data behind them, otherwise I'd get sacked and that's never happened. And solution two you've left out, ban all but local HGV traffic from the N2 from after Ashbourne to Slane. My initial solution was a toll booth, with free access to local traffic. The Lenister orbital is actually essential to ease congestion diverting non-essential traffic from going through Dublin, it will be built anyway. Why not now?

2. Google maps, Dublin to Derry via M1 3 Hrs 9min, via N2 3 Hrs 17 mins. They are avoiding tolls except as I said delivery traffic which will go into Slane anyway. East West traffic - I have absolutely no problem with a bypass of North Slane to ease this, but it should be designed to fit in later with a Lenister Orbital North of Slane too.

3. The bypass is only a solution for Slane. Derry traffic should use the M1. A speed camera or a person sitting there with on the spot fines ability would pay their own way and in this environment there would be lots of lads willing to take it on.

4. You seem to be selective, I said from Dublin use the M1. And as above I support an East West bypass North of Slane to be eventually added to the L.O. , a part of a long term solution that doesn't affect archaeological areas. But I think your adding to my case that you need a correctly routed Lenister Orbital since this would by-pass Navan to the west and north. A long term solution for everyone and what's another billion when we're 80 odd billion in debt. It's only crazy because your not looking at the long term.

5. No bubbles burst, I was only pointing out that Ledwidge himself may have been worried about his beloved landscape. The couple who run it are not him.

6. Why are you so convinced it's not? Why do all these bad decisions, wrong turns lead back to directives from the Council? What is the reasoning behind building near an archaeological landscape when the main problem seems to be people not wanting to pay tolls. An East West bypass, north of Slane and forcing M1 traffic back onto it would be part of a long term sustainable solution. I'll even throw in a Bypass North of Navan from the M3 to the N2 for free. Can you prove to me that they acted in good faith? In fairness Meath Councilors recent actions do not fill me with confidence on this matter.
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Mollie
Unregistered User
Jul 30 10 00:11
Comment: 3562

In view of what is said in the Infrastructure Investment Priorities 2010-2016 does anyone think that the Slane bypass will now go ahead and if so how will it be financed? The same could be said of the Navan railway?

The whole issue of sustainable long term transport planning around the country seems to have been scrapped in favour of Dublin projects.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2010/capitalreview.pdf

SlaneCitizen

It is worrying that you say that the PPP approach is in principle a good idea (with the user/motorist paying).

Fine if it works out that way .

Schemes should be subject to stringent cost benefit analysis.

Not sure how that was applied to the M3 ON THIS PARTICULAR ROUTE.

A straight route to the west would have taken in a larger catchment area including Trim and there might have been some hope of meeting the traffic guarantee.

The M3 PPP works in the opposite way to your ideal - all taxpayers subsidising it through the secret part of the contract . The minimum traffic guarantee said by Fred Barry to be 25000 tolls per day and the Irish government has to pay the Concession Company compensation if traffic falls below that established minimum.

http://report2008.ferrovial.com/en/index.asp?MP=328&MS=1930&MN=3

The daily traffic on the old N3 has been this year around 16000 per day and the NRA traffic count for June indicates that about half of that number has transferred onto the M3.

I leave it to you to work out if that PPP is a good deal and if you can bear to do the sums what is the daily cost to the taxpayer. Also this takes the issue out of Meath and makes it a National problem and everyone is a loser including you Seany P.

http://nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/

With regard to the Slane bypass - well if the bridge is to be closed for a period of time then that in effect brings about a HGV ban. One wonders how that will be implemented and monitored. If I lived in Slane ( yes I do know it quite well ) I be looking to see how that is managed.

With regard to the proposed route for the bypass - I always get suspicious when I hear that the western route is not an option without any evidence maps or documentation being published in support of that position.

Yes the west poses problems too a steep valley lots of trees to hide the bridge. I’ve heard suggestions of the road being built out as far as Pighill.

If the long term plan is for the N2 to be developed as a Motorway to the border draw a straight line on the map from north of Ashbourne to the border and consider which side of Slane that would fall.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 30 10 02:48
Comment: 3563

Nicely written Mollie. The same points about transparency and the future plans for infrastructure for Meath continue to be raised and never really answered.

The proposals that we were told would happen such as the landscape plan, are fought tooth and nail by councilors even though we were told there never was a plan for large scale commercial or housing development within the area.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Jul 30 10 07:34
Comment: 3564

Funny even the The National Institute for Regional and Spatial Analysis (NIRSA) seems to think mate-ship influenced planning decisions.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/calls-for-inquiry-into-planning-system-cronyism-2278288.html
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Jul 30 10 13:19
Comment: 3567

Pauline,

1. The reason you keep asking for official traffic stats must be that you don’t understand the problems in Slane. Like a lot of your fellow TaraWatch warriors, you are incorrectly assuming that the problem solely relates to toll dodging HGV trucks. when in fact these are only part of the problem. How will a tool booth outside Slane provide safe access onto the N2 for the E/W traffic ? How will a tool booth prevent multiple car pile ups on the steep approach to the bridge (we had a three car pile up last March)? How will a toll booth stop the 1000s of cars and trucks that genuinely need to use the N2?.

2. The Leinster Orbital will not get built in this lifetime because the county is broke. We could build portion of it to bypass Slane and that would certainly help E/W traffic but will do zilch for N/S traffic. Pauline, we need a realistic solution now.

3. I am glad that you do not dispute my point that the most important stakeholders in the Ledwidge museum, ie the people who run it, are in favour of the bypass.

4. I have repeatedly asked for evidence to backup your wild assertion that the Slane bypass was selected to suite the “mates” of councillors and you have so far responded with generalities. At this point Pauline you sound like the boy who cried wolf. Someday you may very well point out a real case of corruption but nobody will listen to you.
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Mollie
Unregistered User
Jul 30 10 18:58
Comment: 3572

Slane Citizen,

1. There was a lengthly article in the Times last month which summarises the situation in Meath regarding reckless development.

It is accompanied by a photo of Trim castle and the hotel opposite - a monument to bad taste if nothing else. ( the hotel not the castle )

2. IRISH TIMES.

Meath councillors were responsible for the rezoning thousands of acres of land, much of which is now covered in unsaleable buildings, writes FRANK McDONALD , Environment Editor.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0622/1224273021815.html

3. Re the Ledwidge Cottage , (I haven’t seen or read many of the submissions re the Slane Bypass - are they on line please ? ) - surely the most important stakeholders are the visitors who wish to enjoy the peace and tranquillity of the poets home and the landscape from which he drew his inspiration.

Will a massive roundabout and link road through the field next to the cottage garden add to or take away from that experience. What do you think?

As tourist numbers are down by 30% in the last year can Meath afford to risk losing more visitors?

Where else are jobs to be generated at this time?

You must understand that is also the concern about the bypass and bridge being visible from Knowth and being within yards of the Battle of the Boyne Rossnaree crossing.

This what MAHS say in their submission;-

2.1.4. Ledwidge Museum: The proposed new road will pass very close to the Francis Ledwidge Cottage Museum and will have a detrimental impact on the access to, enjoyment of, and experience of the museum and its associated heritage and views. This is not sufficiently evaluated in the EIS.

About HGVs

1.3. It should be noted that:

· (i) a resolution to implement a ban on HGV vehicles travelling North-South through Slane on the N2 was passed at the Meath County Council Meeting on the 6th April 2009

· (ii) in respect of a 30kph speed limit, the MCC Director of Services, Mr Eugene Cummins, reported to Meath Co Council (6 July 2009) that Ministerial guidelines “identify that the use of the 30 km/h speed limit on a permanent basis should be limited to locations where there is a current or expected concentration of vulnerable road users” but he also advised that “the guidelines also specify in 5.6.2. that the permanent 30 kph speed limit must not be applied to a national road.” These are guidelines only and common sense would suggest that the Minister – if asked - can change this guideline 'at the stroke of a pen' in respect of the serious safety situation in Slane village.

http://community.meath.ie/mahs/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=1

4. Meath sells itself as the Heritage Capital of Ireland - if you read the submissions re the Tara Skryne Landscape project at least one tour operator claims the M3 being pushed through Tara - Skryne has had a detrimental affect on tourism.

5. The proposed Slane bypass - If the EIS had included maps showing the ‘rejected’ western routes and had given a detailed account of why those routes were considered unsuitable the public may have had a little more confidence in the process. Don’t you see lack of openness and transparency makes people very suspicious.

6. Again how will it be funded ? The revised NDP speaks only of ‘Projects to be prioritised here include progression of the Atlantic Corridor, the N11 and other key strategic routes‘.

Is the N2 a key strategic route?
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SlaneCitizen
Unregistered User
Aug 1 10 19:54
Comment: 3578

Corruption and Slane bypass

Pauline alleged that the Slane bypass route was selected to suit the mates of the councillors. You have provided all sorts of info related to general planning issues, Trim etc but nothing has been provided to backup the claim that the Slane bypass route was selected to suit the mates of the councillors. I will be charitable to Pauline and assume that this was just a wild throwaway assertion made in the heat of debate.

Ledwidge Musuem:

Access to the museum is very dangerous and there is limited parking. The provision of the bypass will solve both problems. It seems that your position is that that the people who actually run the museum don’t know what is best for it ? Very nice - I don’t think I need to comment any further.

Ladies, At this point I am going to sign off. My goal with this conversation was never to try and convert you - after all I was dealing with someone who actually thinks it is s rational that parts of new M3 motorway should be demolished and rebuilt elsewhere. Instead you have admirably demonstrated how the arguments put forth by the SaveTara/Newgrange warriors do not stand up to normal logic and reasoning.

Goodnight and thank you.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Aug 5 10 02:33
Comment: 3602

If Meath Council used logic and reason in their planning, there would not be an issue.

If only those in Meath who support these decisions would pick up the tab.

And strange that... it was completely logical to move a motorway to protect StoneHenge but not Tara.. what a wonderful country we have created.
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Matt
Unregistered User
Aug 6 10 01:13
Comment: 3606

Interesting conversation .... Pauline, I noticed that you did not answer the last questions posed by SlaneCitizen. They do seem reasonable questions. If there is corruption related to Slane then we need to know about it. If however, you really dont have any evidence to backup up your claim, then you should withdraw it.
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Mollie
Unregistered User
Aug 6 10 11:06
Comment: 3608

Hi Matt having followed this conversation you will see that SlaneCitizen has not addressed many points I’ve made. In view of the dire state of the Irish economy I think they are relevant - what do you think?

For example ;-

1.The M3 PPP shortcomings now being a National problem how to avoid the same issues over the Slane Bypass?

2.The daily traffic on the old N3 has been this year around 16000 per day and the NRA traffic count for June indicates that about half of that number has transferred onto the M3.

3.- if that PPP is a good deal and if you can bear to do the sums what is the daily cost to the taxpayer. Also this takes the issue out of Meath and makes it a National problem and everyone is a loser including Seany P.

( The M3 Contract guarantees 25000 + toll payments per day - using the NRA Traffic Counter figures for June 2010 as an indication there may be in the region of 12000- 14000 toll payments made per day -some paying one and fewer paying two tolls - the taxpayer having to cover the shortfall. )

4.If the long term plan is for the N2 to be developed as a Motorway to the border draw a straight line on the map from north of Ashbourne to the border and consider which side of Slane that would fall

5. Re the Ledwidge Cottage , (I haven’t seen or read many of the submissions re the Slane Bypass - are they on line please ? ) -

6. The proposed Slane bypass - If the EIS had included maps showing the ‘rejected’ western routes and had given a detailed account of why those routes were considered unsuitable the public may have had a little more confidence in the process. Don’t you see lack of openness and transparency makes people very suspicious?

7. Again how will it be funded ? The revised NDP speaks only of ‘Projects to be prioritised here include progression of the Atlantic Corridor, the N11 and other key strategic routes‘.

Is the N2 a key strategic route?
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Aug 16 10 05:55
Comment: 3656

Matt - I didn't say corruption, I said to please their mates.

I answered several times and I'll try to be clearer, if a process continues on without interference and comes to the wrong conclusion then this is incompetence. When a planning process takes the wrong path due to active interference there is something more behind it.

At each stage of the planning hearing, Meath Council interfered to ensure the path of the M3 was on current route. In the Slane by-pass once again the reality of facts does not match the summarized data, which after An Bord Pleanala criticism of this in the M3 hearing is extremely strange.

Now we can spend millions of euro's on tribunals or we can accept that Meath council has some reason, which is not a valid one because this would be in the planning documents or in the papers, for this interference.

To frame it another way, why are Meath politicians so mad about the Landscape plan? And why object after the fact when they were invited to all the meetings.
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Matt
Unregistered User
Aug 18 10 01:49
Comment: 3661

Pauline said

“I didn't say corruption, I said to please their mates”

Hmmm…I’m trying to understand Pauline but that sounds like you are splitting hairs.

To recap, this is what you said:

“Can you not step back and see your councillors wait until the last moment when you are desperate for any route, or as with the landscape legislation when you can't check out the facts, before forcing through the route to suit their mates”

Who are the councillors that forced through the route?

Who are their mates?

How will their mates benefit?

How was the route “forced through”?

These are *the* most important questions in this debate. Please answer these *specific*questions about the Slane bypass.

You obviously are not happy with the M3 outcome but you cannot use that to assume that the Slane bypass process is defective.

If you can’t provide evidence to substantiate these very serious allegations then it is difficult to respect the other points you have made.

Thanks

Matt
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Aug 19 10 07:51
Comment: 3668

No, it's not splitting hairs, it's being honest.

I feel like I'm having the same conversation as I had with my dad when I was about 14 and I said that Charlie Haughey was taking money from people he shouldn't and they told me prove it. Years later everyone else was up in a heap about him and I was, 'but it was obvious at the time'.

But Matt, I take your point and I'm dead busy for the next week but I will get back to you.

However, you do take mine that the route would be more obviously put as part of an overall plan. I try very hard to answer your questions honestly and openly but then you guys never answer any raised from my side. Even with a Slane bypass other towns along the N2 will be still impacted and they shouldn't be using this road to go to Derry.
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Pauline
Unregistered User
Sep 1 10 03:30
Comment: 3715

I noticed you still didn't answer my questions is to where the traffic is going that shouldn't be using either the M1 or M3? And Derry should be diverting to use the M1.

Note I agree with a East West bypass from the M1 to the M3 North of Slane.

This feels more like a political attack than a residents one since you keep on coming back to a point which is irrelevant. I asked to be convinced but all you do is attack?

1. Who are the councillors that forced through the route?

I'm not naming names but in my 20 years working in data analysis, no one has ever applied weightings unless they wanted to get a "previously decided" result.

2. Who are their mates?

Similarly I don't case about any 2-bit developers who want to make their buck building housing estates and shopping centres that will probably never be needed within an archaeological area before it has been properly geophys'd to see where we can build

3. How will their mates benefit?

Answered above, by opening up an archaeological area to major development. Of course a landscape plan would stop this, there is no legally binding plan for Meath Archaeological areas as yet.

4. How was the route “forced through”?

As I said previously which you seem not to read - The summary matrices for the Bypass did not reflect the data behind them, results were bizarrely weighted.

5. These are *the* most important questions in this debate. Please answer these *specific*questions about the Slane bypass.

Have done - though I would have thought the most important questions in this debate was

1. Is the bypass needed or could other measures be taken, after all we are broke.

2. How does this by-pass fit into a long term transport/development and archaeological plan for Meath? Surely we shouldn't be building a by-pass that won't fit in to future plans.

6. You obviously are not happy with the M3 outcome but you cannot use that to assume that the Slane bypass process is defective.

This is why I am trying to interact with you guys to figure out what is happening but yet

as I said, this seems like a sustained attack rather than a serious attempt to tell me why this is necessary along this route.

7. If you can’t provide evidence to substantiate these very serious allegations then it is difficult to respect the other points you have made.

Even my friend a lifetime committed Fianna Fail'er does not dispute the fact we have corruption in Councils in Ireland, she merely points out that they all do it.

I would have thought that the opinion that most Irish Councilors supported vested interest was a common one. And given the fact that Meath is the most over-zones, that Meath Developers may have some friends on the Council. As for Slane, I would have thought the first call would be to the Road Hauliers to remove non-essential HGV traffic?

Anyway, I wanted to ask for answers but I got none, just a sense that this is political issue rather than a practical one which it should be.
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